Post #27,022
2/2/02 7:06:01 PM
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Exactly, and...
The Phoenician empire was broken by Alexander the Great in 333 BC (332 for Tyre), and the name Phoenecia was finally lost in 64 BC when it became part of the Roman province of Syria.
But Carthage had become the center of Phoenician trade several centuries before that, at about the time that Babylon captured Tyre in the 6'th century BC. That is why I marked the destruction of Phoenician power by Carthage's destruction in 146 BC by Rome.
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #27,025
2/2/02 9:23:56 PM
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On Malta, I was told they were of Phoenician decent.
Alex
"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny
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Post #27,165
2/4/02 10:03:58 AM
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Re: Exactly, and and...
... the Roman word for the Carthagineans, "Puni", from which we get the term "Punic", has the same root as the (greek) "Phoen" in Phoenicia. Folks at the time were very aware that Carthage was part of the phoenician world.
One of the most obvious turning-points of history was the roman defeat of Carthage. Rome and Carthage very closely balanced militarily -- either one could have gone on to take over the hellenistic world and dominate the subsequent history of the West.
Whatever Rome's faults were, its subjects and allies in Italy endured 20 years of war and invasion and defeat rather than join Hannibal's carthaginean army against a militarily impotent Rome. If Tenochtitlan had inspired even half that loyalty among its subjects in central Mexico, Cortez wouldn't have had a prayer... just a thought.
On the other hand, had Carthage won, today's Mexico City might have been founded as a phoenician colony 2000 years ago...
Giovanni
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Post #27,181
2/4/02 11:02:47 AM
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They were, see book of Mormon
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
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Post #27,212
2/4/02 12:54:49 PM
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But would the Carthaginians...
have managed to have their empire last until 1453 AD like the Romans did?
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #27,215
2/4/02 12:58:48 PM
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Dont know enough to answer
but the phonecian diaspora helped map trade routes that eventually led Cristobal to these shores. Thor Hyerdal and his Ra expedition showed the possible expansion of these peoples to the Americas.
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
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Post #27,243
2/4/02 3:54:25 PM
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Re: But would the Carthaginians...
Could a putative phoenician empire built after a defeat of Rome in 200 BC have lasted until 1453 ? I don't know of course, but I personally doubt it. Roman administration had a lot of common sense and was well respected; it was politically very inclusive; most folks over the centuries were proud to be roman citizens and were very sorry to see it go. All in all, the roman empire was a pretty rare thing: a long-lived union of very diverse peoples over a large area that inspired devotion and identification.
Giovanni
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Post #27,246
2/4/02 4:03:22 PM
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Pax Romana!
Alex
"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny
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Post #27,262
2/4/02 5:06:03 PM
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I find it strange that...
The Italians are known for producing one of the best administered empires in history, but are also known for very haphazard administration of government today... :-)
/duck
Ben
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Post #27,370
2/5/02 10:59:36 AM
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they dont let them use wheat sheaves anymore :)
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
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Post #27,546
2/6/02 4:42:33 PM
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A regime joke
Even during Fascism -- bundles or no -- Italy was not particularly well administered.
Here's a fascist regime joke my father remembers.
Consider the following 3 qualities. If any two are present in the same person, the third is necessarily excluded...
1. Honesty
2. Intelligence
3. Being a Fascist
Giovanni
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Post #27,545
2/6/02 4:25:21 PM
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It is a little strange ...
Those ancient romans do seem more german than italian as far as organization goes. The Italian style of administrative chaos has matured over centuries of foreign and local misrule, graft, corruption and cynicism in the presence of incredible cultural wealth, and is indeed one of the wonders of Europe -- but even it pales in comparison to the millennially aged product that flourishes on the Indian subcontinent.
Giovanni
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Post #27,653
2/7/02 11:32:16 AM
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If I get it right...
...current crop of Italians are mostly descendent of barbarians that overran Rome.
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Post #27,560
2/6/02 6:48:12 PM
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Just look at the EU Commisioner, mr "Roman" Prodi
A descendant of the "Ugly Americans" of two millennia ago speaks: Roman administration had a lot of common sense and was well respected; it was politically very inclusive; most folks over the centuries were proud to be roman citizens and were very sorry to see it go. All in all, the roman empire was a pretty rare thing: a long-lived union of very diverse peoples over a large area that inspired devotion and identification. Many people are still proud to proclaim -- some even with their very name! -- that they "are Romans". Personally, being a German and all, I prefer to include the mediaeval "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation" in the concept, and see it as a way of saying "I am a European". Christian "Romanus sum!" Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
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Post #27,611
2/7/02 1:24:49 AM
2/7/02 1:26:05 AM
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Re: Holy Roman Empire
Not Holy.
Not Roman.
Not an Empire.
Talk about marketing! :)
Alex
"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny
Edited by a6l6e6x
Feb. 7, 2002, 01:26:05 AM EST
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Post #27,626
2/7/02 6:39:18 AM
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OK, neither Holy nor Roman; but why/how wasn't it an Empire?
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Post #27,663
2/7/02 1:13:56 PM
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Just too small in area.
Alex
"Of course, you realize this means war." -B. Bunny
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Post #27,716
2/7/02 7:06:13 PM
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Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation
Fast freddie's crew. Owned Byzantium to the baltic, and they say the turks arnt eauropeans. :)
thanx,
bill
"If you're half-evil, nothing soothes you more than to think the person you are opposed to is totally evil."
Norman Mailer
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Post #27,780
2/8/02 9:23:25 AM
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By then Anatolia had been taken from Byzans by... the Turks.
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