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New Curiously enough, I don't see either as a defense.
Yes, like any Red-Blooded Ammuric'n, he has the right -- say, rather, the power -- to be in any place, and do any thing, that his own budget (monetary, timely, and/or psychic) will enable him to reach. What he does not have is a free pass -- he is not immune to the consequences of his choices. Wails of I didn't mean it! and I was just playing! and the like are not exonerative.

And you do misunderstand at least part of my meaning. God made me do it, as applied to killing, is a lie, whoever emits it, and a blasphemous one. God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent [sez so right there on the label, as R. Heinlein pointed out], and the notion that He/She/It/Dzhrz requires thugs and enforcers is IMO blasphemy, more or less by definition. On the other hand, if the atheists are correct, such people are arrogating to themselves a power no one can have by right; in the absence of a Deity, the word "blasphemy" is a null and therefore can be applied in a new meaning. Saves making up sounds.

The challenge of the John Walker case is only indirectly about the man himself. There exists an organization, a group of people, whose self-stated aim is to kill, enslave, or imprison all who do not belong to their organization. Mr. Walker has joined that organization and apparently been accepted by it. Is this an acceptable way out? Even though the tenets and beliefs of the organization are diametrically opposed to the [ideal version of] our own? Is the correct way to defuse this threat "can't beat 'em, therefore join 'em"? Our own views include the notion of "punishment", which in many cases verges on revenge; are those notions applicable in this case?

In my opinion it would be better simply not to examine those questions, and go at it from a much more limited viewpoint. Does John Walker himself pose a future threat to our way of life, or to members of our society? If the answer is "yes", the correct approach is to remove the possible threat, by whatever method we can afford -- and yes, the "cost" includes the damage to our own ideals caused by such methods as, e.g., summary execution or torture, but the "future threat" part must also include the likelihood that others will use him as an example worthy of emulation at acceptable cost.

That last clause [of an extraordinarily complex sentence!] admits of attack on two fronts: "worthy of emulation" and "acceptable cost". The current set of charges essentially trivializes what Walker and the people he joined regard as the central part of the case; we aren't charging him with the rather existential and philosophical crime of treason, he's charged with the more concrete offense of killing people. If we can now show that his fate is too costly to emulate for such a trivial return, possibly others will avoid that emulation.

So far as I can see there is no other approach to "punishment" that's supportable.
Regards,
Ric
New Patty Hearst got off because she was rich.
- in a similar sort of 'unfortunate companions' - 'course they DID kidnap her, etc.

Little argument from me, that we have created for ourselves a personal responsibility crisis, commencing with the post-Billy bizness climate as has culminated in Enron. (Tip of iceberg) Crisis is across all scales and into the Institutions.

To cut to chase: I 'offered him' one version of a possibly.. sustainable out - how might he 'prove' (being forced) ?? I said it was slim.

And if there be any admissible evidence of his killing.. Which? Anyone? A Northern Alliance disposable local? Just an infinitely more valuable American life*? How - eye witness/ =copping a plea? Etc. Gonna be ugly both sides.


*see that line noted on news? re the Somalia war flic: about the relative value of One Murican life vs. 'all Somalis' - great int'l propaganda there, Hollywood mogul!

Once above is decided: I suspect that if he can be shown to have participated in a firefight with (any) American at other end: he shall become responsible. ie. Life prolly, as a sop to the majority of civilized countries [and allies] who have seen the death penalty for what it is: ineffective at deterrence; heavily stacked against anyone who can't fund a Dream Team. Merely - feelgood for vengeance.

Finally - the troglodytes he (originally) threw his lot in with, I deem no more hypocritical and vile than our home-grown equivalents:

Same disdain for half the species (female) and unwillingness to understand the separation of theology and state - and ready to kill those who believe differently. Taliban == Murican Taliban. But we won't be consistent enough to acknowledge the interchangeability - now will we? (here at home)

And we damn sure won't face the consequences [oil] of Pax Americana [control] - upon the credibility of our own putative 'principles' as we see those ourselves and - in the rest of the world's responses to our use of military and economic power. - all along.

So much for er National responsibility then - while we're discussing the principle.



Ashton

Difficult to get all joyful about Might Makes Right - no matter whether the local bully happens to be one's son - or larger fish.
New Basic error, there, Ash
Patty Hearst *didn't* get off. She served time. Her grandstanding ("She was brainwashed"!) lawyer failed.

Granted, perhaps she got less time and an easier sentence than others in her position, but a good portion of that can be explained in the original kidnapping.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
     Johny Walker gets his day in court - (marlowe) - (37)
         Are those real laws? - (Brandioch) - (34)
             Are you volunteering your services for the defense team? - (marlowe) - (1)
                 Not another one - (drewk)
             Conspiricy to commit murder is a real law. -NT - (bepatient) - (14)
                 Comprehension is not your strong point, is it? - (Brandioch) - (13)
                     I'd advise you to leave the sarcasm... - (marlowe) - (12)
                         Thats ok...he secretly loves me. -NT - (bepatient)
                         I've supplied quotes and references. - (Brandioch) - (9)
                             Oh really?? - (bepatient) - (8)
                                 As I've said, you're functionally illiterate. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                     The master of all things has spoken, eh? -NT - (bepatient)
                                 I think I know where his quotes and references are. - (marlowe) - (5)
                                     All these worlds are yours.... - (bepatient)
                                     You've failed the challenge I gave you. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                         So I completed the task! - (Brandioch)
                                     Interesting.. it's taken you 3 tries, merely to cut & paste - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         That's because I'm a stickler for detail. - (marlowe)
                         Memorizing disjointed phrases is pretty easy. - (Ashton)
             Trading with a proscribed country is another real law - (wharris2)
             Why does this remind me of Bill Gates & Bill Clinton? -NT - (SpiceWare)
             Of course they are. - (Ric Locke) - (14)
                 Trouble is.. it's OJ All The Time in Newsfotainment - (Ashton) - (12)
                     Mindset? - (wharris2) - (11)
                         Yes, mindset. - (Ric Locke) - (10)
                             I see his defense as simpler (if he has any) - (Ashton) - (9)
                                 Curiously enough, I don't see either as a defense. - (Ric Locke) - (2)
                                     Patty Hearst got off because she was rich. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         Basic error, there, Ash - (wharris2)
                                 His defence is simple - (boxley) - (1)
                                     He'll be got on one count, at least - (wharris2)
                                 I see it slightly differently. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                     Joining a foreign military - (mhuber) - (2)
                                         Hmmmm. Gotta ponder. -NT - (Ashton)
                                         see other flame taliban !=military :) -NT - (boxley)
                 Please learn the terms you wish to employ. - (Brandioch)
         THE ACTUAL CHARGES. - (Brandioch) - (1)
             Finally.. Let The Games Begin - it is 'Robot Wars' - right? - (Ashton)

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