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New Are those real laws?
Is there actually a law on the books that says it is illegal to conspire to kill Americans, but only if you're in Afghanistan? Or is the law stating that it is illegal to conspire to kill Americans WHILE they are in Afghanistan?

And are there actually laws that specify the Taliban?
New Are you volunteering your services for the defense team?
If not, please do.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New Not another one
He's already waived his right to counsel. Everyone claiming to speak on his behalf is doing it against his will. They have challenged the admissibility of his waiver of counsel.
We have to fight the terrorists as if there were no rules and preserve our open society as if there were no terrorists. -- [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/05/opinion/BIO-FRIEDMAN.html|Thomas Friedman]
New Conspiricy to commit murder is a real law.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Comprehension is not your strong point, is it?
Is there a law that says it is illegal to conspire to kill Americans ONLY IF THEY ARE IN AFGHANISTAN?

Or was the law saying it is illegal to conspire IN AFGHANISTAN to kill Americans?

For those of you will limited intellectual capabilities *cough* Bill Patient *cough*, this was mocking the "charges" that were reported.

Again, clarity is the victim in these "reportings".
New I'd advise you to leave the sarcasm...
to those of us who know how to do it well.

Likewise the analysis of all things anti-terrorist. There are many points of view of these matters, but few of them are as incoherent as yours.

You continuously attempt to make up with earnestness what you lack in ability. It ain't working.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New Thats ok...he secretly loves me.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New I've supplied quotes and references.
You've supplied personal attacks.

And you call my position "incoherent"?

Why don't you prove your point for once?

Give me the reference for the crimes he's being charged with. It should be simple to find if the reporting was accurate (my point was that it wasn't).

Go ahead. Support your position.
New Oh really??
Is there actually a law on the books that says it is illegal to conspire to kill Americans, but only if you're in Afghanistan? Or is the law stating that it is illegal to conspire to kill Americans WHILE they are in Afghanistan?

And are there actually laws that specify the Taliban?


There's your post in its entirety. No quotes...no references...not even a reference to the point you claim you were making.

Hmmm.

We're intellectually challenged? Riiiigghhhhtt. </sarcasm>


You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New As I've said, you're functionally illiterate.
You are also incapable of recalling anything earlier than two posts ago.

My reference was to the amount of information I've posted and referenced and quoted in these "discussions" with Marlowe.

Like my quotes from the Geneva Conventions showing that all prisoners are to be treated as POW's until their status has been determined?

But you're not quite capable of that feat of mental strength. You're limited to my two previous posts.

I've supplied references to support my position.

Marlowe has not.

I've pointed out that the "reporting" on this subject is rather less than clear.

He seems to hold a position counter to that.

So, I asked him to provide links or references to support that.

And you can't comprehend that request.

Functionally illiterate. Thanks for confirming that.
New The master of all things has spoken, eh?
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New I think I know where his quotes and references are.
Most of them are on a subnet not accessible from here, on planet Brandioch in the Yahoo galaxy.

By chance, one fell through a rip in the spacetime continuum and arrived here. That was the Geneva Convention thing. He's milking it for all its worth, which is fine. But he's also trying to milk it for way more than it's worth, which is only making him look silly.

He seems vague on the concept of relevance, and perhaps he sincerely believes he's actually making points. It's almost as if he had quoted at length from a recipe for low fat chocolate mousse, in support of releasing all the detainees on personal recognizance(*), and were unable to see that the one does not support the other. To him, a cite is a cite.

The same defect that makes him unable to distinguish relevance from irrelevance would also make him unable to connect cause with effect. This explains his puzzled outrage at our mocking him.

(*)I'm sure we'll be able to recognize them as they go reconnoitering about.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Expand Edited by marlowe Jan. 24, 2002, 03:02:23 PM EST
Expand Edited by marlowe Jan. 24, 2002, 07:11:15 PM EST
New All these worlds are yours....
...except Europa ;)
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New You've failed the challenge I gave you.
You didn't supply references for the laws he has supposedly broken.

I am not surprised.

Claim whatever you want and hide behind personal attacks.

The "reporting" on this topic is pathetic.
New So I completed the task!
[link|http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/terrorism/uswlindh11502cmp.html|http://news.findlaw...1502cmp.html]
New Interesting.. it's taken you 3 tries, merely to cut & paste
some snippets of doggerel.. in form of an adolescent ad hominem. I remember that game: I was 11 IIRC when the practice seemed almost like 'thought'. It was ever so much more fun than actually reading the material for that book report and.. saying something about it.

Of course the web provides countless bytes of such detritus and your hard disk must be getting full (?) Trouble is, like the third viewing of the Ren & Stimpy show: adolescent dialogue seems to be just -

adolescent dialogue.

Still, I see you have at least one admirer. So who am I to judge what it takes to amuse a peer? Now were I to indulge a small ad hominem, I'd settle for just a simple declarative statement - one capable I believe, of comprehension (if I can remember back that far) of another 11 year old:

You're boring. The more so when you attempt a cleverness which is hilariously but somehow also hideously beyond reach. Please get some instruction before the next show - OK?

But I guess I won't say it; you'd probably miss it and pout - and try even harder for cleverness.


Ashton
..gotta go watch the rest of the skit
New That's because I'm a stickler for detail.
I could post like you if I wanted to. Perfect gibberish on the first try. But I don't want to.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
New Memorizing disjointed phrases is pretty easy.
Reading unctuous self-praise is hard to bear.

Sometimes there's a bonus though - as when a boomerang misses the house cat and hits a mischievous brat on the head.

(Though to be fair.. no one could accuse you of earnestness or 'analysis')
Lordie Lordie, please protect us from the wrath of
Those who Know
New Trading with a proscribed country is another real law
One famous example is Bobby Fischer, who was indicted for going to Serbia while U.N. and U.S. trade sanctions were in place. Not that the FBI probably has this high on their list of priorities.

"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Why does this remind me of Bill Gates & Bill Clinton?

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New Of course they are.
"Lindh faces four charges, according to the government's criminal complaint. Those are engaging in a conspiracy to kill Americans in Afghanistan, providing material support and resources to foreign terrorist organizations, engaging in prohibited transactions with the Taliban and providing goods and services to and for the benefit of the Taliban."

It's illegal under United States law to conspire to kill people. That's any people, anywhere (with conspicuous exception for the military, as with any country.) If the charge specifies "Americans" and "in Afganistan", that's redundant. So yes, that's a real crime. It's also against the law to specifically conspire to kill American citizens; I'm not sure which law they're citing here.

It's illegal under United States law to provide material support and resources to anyone who's conspiring to kill people. That's any people, anywhere; it's a bit of a reach, of course. There are also specific laws regarding support of terrorists. Those last have been expanded lately; it'd be interesting to see whether Walker is being charged under the earlier or later versions. If the latter, his lawyers might have an argument based on the prohibition of ex post facto laws in the Constitution.

It's illegal under United States law to provide support and resources to a specific list of organizations. The Taliban is on that list, and has been for some considerable time. I'm not sure how that breaks out into two separate charges, but I'm not a lawyer, and dividing things out into multiple charges is a fairly common prosecutorial tactic. So yes, specifically, dealing with the Taliban is illegal; also Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and a long list of others (list available on the State Department site; I'm too lazy this morning to provide the site address to approximately the tenth forum).

So yes, all those things are against the law. Your attempt at reductio ad absurdum just made you look absurd, Brandioch.
Regards,
Ric
New Trouble is.. it's OJ All The Time in Newsfotainment
And we haven't yet the foggiest of what this guy's mindset ever was, morphed into - and ended up when he was captured. And intent is very much a part of Murican law.

We know nada Zippo about what his defense generally, let alone sequentially.. might or might not be (?) But.. we just fucking Know he's a Traitor - cause he was With Those Guys in the end.

Would it matter if.. had he tried to leave at some point of his transition from True Believer ---> Fighter against Northern Alliance ---> *Later* US entry into a shooting war: he would have been shot? Was he scared shitless or smugly gung-ho? You Don't Know! "how" he happened to be in that captured group. (Yes, had he died - there would be no need of an inquest. But he didn't.)

Is that the same question about say, a Wehrmacht soldier assigned to guard an extermination camp (Yes it was supposed to be an SS Zonderkommando? gig.. but towards the end they took burger flippers too.) War criminal or scared shitless grunt?

One need not be an apologist for whatever intensely naive decisions this kid made - in order to see the forces of jingoism and lynch mobs a forming: 'cause it's so much Fun to wave that flag in high dudgeon. Especially when ya can't find the guy you Really want to parade around cities in an iron cage, to keep the adrenaline flowing. <<<

IMhO this entire theme is fucking Pre. Mature. as in maturity. We have to wait for some trial revelations, assertions & rebuttals, dissection, second-guessing and finally conclusion: *before* we draw and quarter this unknown accused. Otherwise it's just 2002 McCarthyism assassination. That 2 \ufffdinch veneer has worn right through already.


Ashton
*Every* mob sucks, Every Time.
'Law' Forces patience upon the salivating.
It's all we've got.. because in pack mode: we Are such Assholes.
New Mindset?
And we haven't yet the foggiest of what this guy's mindset ever was, morphed into - and ended up when he was captured. And intent is very much a part of Murican law.

Screw the mindset. That's a part, but not a huge part, of the law. If you drive while drunk and wham into a schoolbus, it doesn't matter what the hell your intent was, you're going to go away for a long time. Likewise, if it's shown that dear poor innocent America-loving John (according to his parents in the press conference) innocently trained in an al Queada camp for six weeks, he's not completely innocent even if he had no knowledge of the September 11 attacks.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New Yes, mindset.
"Screw the mindset. That's a part, but not a huge part, of the law."

::sigh:: But it's becoming an increasingly important part: "But I didn't meeeeeaaaan to do it..."

This strongly appeals to two groups: the moral relativists, who live so far away from reality that they seem to think the kid's lack of intention to break the window means the wind is frustrated by the intact glass, and the trial lawyers, who now have an infinite number of nit-picking alternatives to bill for.

Actually, I think Walker is highly likely to adopt the Twinkie Defense, 21st Century version: "I was compelled to do it by my culture's lack of moral instruction." Very modern-lawyerly, in that it's quite true on one level, but needs a lot of very careful bullshitting explicative reasoning to establish, at $XXXX.00 per hour.
Regards,
Ric
New I see his defense as simpler (if he has any)
.. but will agree at the outset: it *IS* fucking unlikely that - he WAS where he was when captured BECAUSE he 'would have been shot if he tried to leave'.

I trust you will admit that it is a possible scenario, however? But you may not agree that it is (ever ??) an adequate defense - like he should have Guessed while in bucolic Marin: exactly what Would happen .... over the next x years. Right?

If Muricans believe their own incessant preaching [Hah!] - this kid had as much right to make an idiot of himself by embracing hard-line Islam.. as those Tee Vee troglodytes have: to preach vindictive idiocy to the mindless masses, recommend the persecution and offing of 'queers' and the murder of 'baby^h^h^h^h zygote killing' MDs.

If he admits he was where he was INTENTIONALLY: enjoy the dismemberment, with the rest of the mob. Ringside: ya might get splattered with a drop of blood on yer program: souvenir!


Ashton
won't call yer mother names; it's yer species which sucks.. :-\ufffd
New Curiously enough, I don't see either as a defense.
Yes, like any Red-Blooded Ammuric'n, he has the right -- say, rather, the power -- to be in any place, and do any thing, that his own budget (monetary, timely, and/or psychic) will enable him to reach. What he does not have is a free pass -- he is not immune to the consequences of his choices. Wails of I didn't mean it! and I was just playing! and the like are not exonerative.

And you do misunderstand at least part of my meaning. God made me do it, as applied to killing, is a lie, whoever emits it, and a blasphemous one. God is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent [sez so right there on the label, as R. Heinlein pointed out], and the notion that He/She/It/Dzhrz requires thugs and enforcers is IMO blasphemy, more or less by definition. On the other hand, if the atheists are correct, such people are arrogating to themselves a power no one can have by right; in the absence of a Deity, the word "blasphemy" is a null and therefore can be applied in a new meaning. Saves making up sounds.

The challenge of the John Walker case is only indirectly about the man himself. There exists an organization, a group of people, whose self-stated aim is to kill, enslave, or imprison all who do not belong to their organization. Mr. Walker has joined that organization and apparently been accepted by it. Is this an acceptable way out? Even though the tenets and beliefs of the organization are diametrically opposed to the [ideal version of] our own? Is the correct way to defuse this threat "can't beat 'em, therefore join 'em"? Our own views include the notion of "punishment", which in many cases verges on revenge; are those notions applicable in this case?

In my opinion it would be better simply not to examine those questions, and go at it from a much more limited viewpoint. Does John Walker himself pose a future threat to our way of life, or to members of our society? If the answer is "yes", the correct approach is to remove the possible threat, by whatever method we can afford -- and yes, the "cost" includes the damage to our own ideals caused by such methods as, e.g., summary execution or torture, but the "future threat" part must also include the likelihood that others will use him as an example worthy of emulation at acceptable cost.

That last clause [of an extraordinarily complex sentence!] admits of attack on two fronts: "worthy of emulation" and "acceptable cost". The current set of charges essentially trivializes what Walker and the people he joined regard as the central part of the case; we aren't charging him with the rather existential and philosophical crime of treason, he's charged with the more concrete offense of killing people. If we can now show that his fate is too costly to emulate for such a trivial return, possibly others will avoid that emulation.

So far as I can see there is no other approach to "punishment" that's supportable.
Regards,
Ric
New Patty Hearst got off because she was rich.
- in a similar sort of 'unfortunate companions' - 'course they DID kidnap her, etc.

Little argument from me, that we have created for ourselves a personal responsibility crisis, commencing with the post-Billy bizness climate as has culminated in Enron. (Tip of iceberg) Crisis is across all scales and into the Institutions.

To cut to chase: I 'offered him' one version of a possibly.. sustainable out - how might he 'prove' (being forced) ?? I said it was slim.

And if there be any admissible evidence of his killing.. Which? Anyone? A Northern Alliance disposable local? Just an infinitely more valuable American life*? How - eye witness/ =copping a plea? Etc. Gonna be ugly both sides.


*see that line noted on news? re the Somalia war flic: about the relative value of One Murican life vs. 'all Somalis' - great int'l propaganda there, Hollywood mogul!

Once above is decided: I suspect that if he can be shown to have participated in a firefight with (any) American at other end: he shall become responsible. ie. Life prolly, as a sop to the majority of civilized countries [and allies] who have seen the death penalty for what it is: ineffective at deterrence; heavily stacked against anyone who can't fund a Dream Team. Merely - feelgood for vengeance.

Finally - the troglodytes he (originally) threw his lot in with, I deem no more hypocritical and vile than our home-grown equivalents:

Same disdain for half the species (female) and unwillingness to understand the separation of theology and state - and ready to kill those who believe differently. Taliban == Murican Taliban. But we won't be consistent enough to acknowledge the interchangeability - now will we? (here at home)

And we damn sure won't face the consequences [oil] of Pax Americana [control] - upon the credibility of our own putative 'principles' as we see those ourselves and - in the rest of the world's responses to our use of military and economic power. - all along.

So much for er National responsibility then - while we're discussing the principle.



Ashton

Difficult to get all joyful about Might Makes Right - no matter whether the local bully happens to be one's son - or larger fish.
New Basic error, there, Ash
Patty Hearst *didn't* get off. She served time. Her grandstanding ("She was brainwashed"!) lawyer failed.

Granted, perhaps she got less time and an easier sentence than others in her position, but a good portion of that can be explained in the original kidnapping.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New His defence is simple
1. He was not fighting any identifiable Americans and because of remote localation could hae been completely unaware of Americans involvement, the bombardments aside, did they ever fly low enough to clearly identify the planes as American. He was captured and imprisioned by the Northern Alliance and not until interogated by Americans was he aware of Americas involvement.
2. Was his belonging to an organization clearly hostile to America illegal? On the face of it no. Membership in the KKK or Democratic Party is not illegal in and of itself.
3. He is guilty of conspiracy by being in the hearing of others discussing attacks against America. The conspiracy laws in this country are so vague that he will be found guilty of conspiracy.
my 2 cents
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
New He'll be got on one count, at least
Aiding and assisting a proscribed country.

Doubtful he'll be tried for a traitor. (Two witnesses required by the Constitution.) Perhaps other charges might stick, but the proscribed country thing is the one I predict he'll be convicted under.
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
New I see it slightly differently.
Is it illegal for a US citizen to join a foreign military?

If it is not illegal, then, at some point, you may be involved in conspiring to kill other US citizens.

That is a simple fact.

Unless you think you can leave the other military when it looks like there might be a conflict with the US.
New Joining a foreign military
I've been warned, as a dual national, that joining a foreign military is one way in which my US citizenship could be revoked.

Not that it is illegal, just that it could be construed as a renounciation of citizenship.

Which is one angle I haven't seen explored in this case: is the guy still a citizen of the US? His actions (and perhaps words that went along with them) seem to suggest that he does not want to be a citizen. And we don't force that on anybody.
----
"You don't have to be right - just use bolded upper case" - annon.
New Hmmmm. Gotta ponder.
New see other flame taliban !=military :)
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
New Please learn the terms you wish to employ.
"Your attempt at reductio ad absurdum just made you look absurd, Brandioch."

Here, I'll post the definition to make it easier for you.

reductio ad absurdum
A method of proving that a proposition must be false [or true] by assuming the truth [or falsity] of the proposition and then showing that this assumption, taken together with other premises whose truth is already established, would lead to a contradiction (or, at least, to an obvious falsehood). This method is sometimes called indirect proof.

Now, what was my position in that thread?

That the "coverage" of these events is being mangled and obscured.

To support that, I referenced the "laws" that he violated.

"I'm not sure how that breaks out into two separate charges, but I'm not a lawyer, and dividing things out into multiple charges is a fairly common prosecutorial tactic."

Well, you seem to be supporting my position then. You DO NOT KNOW why one crime was broken into two charges.

Well, more correctly, you DO NOT KNOW if each of those charges reference a different law that he broke.

"So yes, specifically, dealing with the Taliban is illegal; also Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and a long list of others (list available on the State Department site; I'm too lazy this morning to provide the site address to approximately the tenth forum)."

Yet, there have been reports that our government had tried to rig oil deals with the Taliban.

Are you sure those are the laws being broken?
     Johny Walker gets his day in court - (marlowe) - (37)
         Are those real laws? - (Brandioch) - (34)
             Are you volunteering your services for the defense team? - (marlowe) - (1)
                 Not another one - (drewk)
             Conspiricy to commit murder is a real law. -NT - (bepatient) - (14)
                 Comprehension is not your strong point, is it? - (Brandioch) - (13)
                     I'd advise you to leave the sarcasm... - (marlowe) - (12)
                         Thats ok...he secretly loves me. -NT - (bepatient)
                         I've supplied quotes and references. - (Brandioch) - (9)
                             Oh really?? - (bepatient) - (8)
                                 As I've said, you're functionally illiterate. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                     The master of all things has spoken, eh? -NT - (bepatient)
                                 I think I know where his quotes and references are. - (marlowe) - (5)
                                     All these worlds are yours.... - (bepatient)
                                     You've failed the challenge I gave you. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                         So I completed the task! - (Brandioch)
                                     Interesting.. it's taken you 3 tries, merely to cut & paste - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         That's because I'm a stickler for detail. - (marlowe)
                         Memorizing disjointed phrases is pretty easy. - (Ashton)
             Trading with a proscribed country is another real law - (wharris2)
             Why does this remind me of Bill Gates & Bill Clinton? -NT - (SpiceWare)
             Of course they are. - (Ric Locke) - (14)
                 Trouble is.. it's OJ All The Time in Newsfotainment - (Ashton) - (12)
                     Mindset? - (wharris2) - (11)
                         Yes, mindset. - (Ric Locke) - (10)
                             I see his defense as simpler (if he has any) - (Ashton) - (9)
                                 Curiously enough, I don't see either as a defense. - (Ric Locke) - (2)
                                     Patty Hearst got off because she was rich. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                         Basic error, there, Ash - (wharris2)
                                 His defence is simple - (boxley) - (1)
                                     He'll be got on one count, at least - (wharris2)
                                 I see it slightly differently. - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                     Joining a foreign military - (mhuber) - (2)
                                         Hmmmm. Gotta ponder. -NT - (Ashton)
                                         see other flame taliban !=military :) -NT - (boxley)
                 Please learn the terms you wish to employ. - (Brandioch)
         THE ACTUAL CHARGES. - (Brandioch) - (1)
             Finally.. Let The Games Begin - it is 'Robot Wars' - right? - (Ashton)

Damn, man, you swing a mean left field passive aggressive non sequitur.
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