Post #23,129
1/4/02 12:14:19 PM
1/4/02 12:24:19 PM
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Battle criticism
I didn't mind them staging a Big Brave Battle that much (though I agree they could have done it better) - I just found myself getting confused by the scene changes. Was this Boromir or was this Aragon fighting? Oh, there's Legolas, ahah it must be Aragon.
The Moria balrog scene was cute, but there also the book rendition is better - it might have made for a more dramatic and ominous scene for the balrog, but it didn't make sense to have all those goblins completely surround the party and then run away. They did that just for a few seconds of "ominous balrog approaching"?
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
Edited by wharris2
Jan. 4, 2002, 12:24:19 PM EST
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Post #23,152
1/4/02 4:32:05 PM
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The changes I would have made...
I would have dropped that whole "crumbling staircase" bit - totally pointless filler - and tried to add in a bit more of Lorien - possibly the blindfolding of the fellowship, Gimli's enchantment with Galadriel, and the gifts, and I would have used Jackson's ending.
Why his ending?
Because, the end of FotR is depressing as all Hell. The fellowship is scattered and Boromir is dead. It's not until the beginning of The Two Towers that the orcs get their comeuppance. Remember, the goal of the LotR movie isn't just to make something for us rabid fans - but to get a bunch of other people involved as well. So, they have to create an ending that won't leave everybody walking out of the theater going, "man, that was a major bummer, dude!" - they have to create an ending that borrows from the second book so that they get people leaving on a high point, drooling for the next film.
Now, as far as the tactical soundness of the orcs behavior - look at it this way: The primary objective is to retrieve the Hobbits. You've got the hobbits. You're also having your ass handed to you by some really stubborn people, including an Elf with a bow from Hell. So, you evac with your prizes, and hope that your master doesn't have you cleaning toilets or providing MS tech support for the next 200 years.
Makes (some) sense to me. However, Lurtz had that Big Bow (Lurtz being the name of the orc that took down Boromir) and it makes little sense that he wouldn't use it on Aragorn before Legolas and Gimli got there.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #23,172
1/4/02 6:08:08 PM
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I saw LOTR the other night
no, the other Lord Of The Rings, the cartoon version. I wanted to see the "real" ending rather than the one that was missing in the live action version.
You know, the one where Gandalf comes back near the end, and the Orcs figure out that the Halflings they have don't have the ring, and Golem helps Frodo and Samwise escape the Orcs. Reinforcements arrive and the Orcs go off running.
Ah well, save the rest for the start of the next movie. Imagine if they did this to Star Wars? Luke and company are going to the Death Star, and then cut to the credits as soon as the Death Star has the range to fire at the Rebel base. Wha hoppen?
"In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
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Post #23,182
1/4/02 8:48:25 PM
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Major disagreement
Jackson's ending made no sense, read zero, to me in 2 viewings. It grates more every time I think about it.
Tolkein's ending makes sense in every detail. It is beautiful. It is tragic. And it reinforces the fact that the bad guys can win.
This is absolutely and utterly integral to the power of the series as a whole. To understand this you will need to track down Tolkein's essay On Monsters. Read it. Until you understand what principles Tolkein conciously based his seminal work on, you won't really understand where the ultimate power of the whole works from.
Jackson is undermining the second and particularly third movies. And when he is all done and you try watching the series as a whole, it won't be as strong as it should have been.
I know you disagree now and are likely to for a good while. Let's talk about it again in 3 years, shall we?
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #23,397
1/7/02 3:34:08 PM
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Oh, I agree.
I didn't say I LIKED that ending - but it was the best ending that Jackson could do, considering the target audience, especially for a first film. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if The Two Towers has the darker ending that finishes that book, since he's got people hooked with the first film. Worked for The Empire Strikes Back, too.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #23,180
1/4/02 8:32:53 PM
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The Moira scene made more sense on a second viewing
The goblins couldn't approach. Gandalf was holding a magic circle holding them off. (Why didn't he do that earlier though? If they give him powers, make them consistent!) But still the idea of orcs drawing back because of the balrog is in the book (even if the movie cannot match it):
Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew , but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear. Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire. But it was not the trolls that had filled the Elf with terror. The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a clous had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.
`Ai, ai!' wailed Legolas. `A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. `Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
`A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. `Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. `What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
Not exactly as it is in the movie...
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Post #23,197
1/4/02 11:30:02 PM
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OK OK, but surrounding still doesn't make sense
In the book, they're running like hell and the orcs/goblins are pursuing. (Sometimes the two seem interchangable, but in the movie, these are clearly more accurately goblins, lesser beings than orcs.)
But I suppose we can't expect Legolas, Gimli, or Gandalf to say "Oh shit, a balrog!" :=)
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #23,396
1/7/02 3:31:59 PM
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Goblins are Orcs.
Strange, eh?
The Orcs were bred from Elves, and were also referred to as Goblins. Saruman bred the Uruk-hai from the regular Orcs, by cross-breeding them with humans.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #23,405
1/7/02 4:49:43 PM
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Err_____ makin them humans
Non- species-specific sluts, wouldn't ya say? (Whichever way was the incubator)
{sigh}
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Post #23,407
1/7/02 4:51:31 PM
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By that token, so were Aragorn and Arwen
Cross racial dating was rare in Tolkein, but celebrated in the right place.
Cheers,
Ben
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Post #23,445
1/7/02 8:53:20 PM
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IIRC...
...and I could be spotty on this, but Aragorn is actually a very small part Elf.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #23,457
1/8/02 12:17:02 AM
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Yes, but very little, but from a couple sources + Maia, too
Consulting the Silmarillion and LoTR appendeces:
Thingol (elf) married Melian, a Maia (a spirit / "angel" roughly on the level of Sauron, well below Melkor/Morgoth)
Their daughter, Luthien (elf), married Beren Barahir (man)
Dior was the son of Beren and Luthien, and Dior's daughter was Elwing.
OK, the other side:
Tuor (man) married Idril Celebrindal (elf), daughter of Turgon King of Gondolin.
Tuor's son Earendil married Elwing. Their sons were Elrond and Elros.
Finally, putting it all together:
Earendil sailed with the last silmarillion to Valinor and obtained the aid of the Valar to defeat Morgoth. After Morgoth was defeated, Elrond and Elros were given the choice to choose their kinship. Elrond, of course, chose to be an elf. Elros chose to be a man, and was the first king of Numenor (Westernesse). This choice was also given to Elrond's children.
Aragorn was descended from Elros, via Elendil (who escaped the ruin of Numenor) by roughly 64 generations.
Tony
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Post #23,421
1/7/02 5:48:47 PM
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These beings were clearly different from Orcs.
Orcs were the man-sized bestial beings they were fighting at the end of the movie, and portrayed in several of the Saruman scenes. These things in the Moria scene swarmed up and down those stone columns in a decidedly non-Orcish manner and were rather diminuative. I know the terms seem to be interchangable, but in this particular case I believe "goblin" is best described as a degenerate lesser breed of orc (spindly and limber), orcs are the human-sized muscular things, and Urak-hai are mutated Super-orcs.
I don't know what else to call those things in the Moria scene but goblins. But I'll admit I haven't read TLOTR for several months; did Tolkien name or describe anything else that might fit the bill?
"Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it."
-- Donald Knuth
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Post #23,430
1/7/02 6:55:29 PM
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Several sizes of Orcs
IIRC:
-- "goblins" is used in The Hobbit, but never in the LoTR. The goblins were living in the Misty Mountains, and didn't like the sun. They are the same as the small orcs from Moria in the LoTR.
-- there are little tracker orcs, like the one that was tracing Frodo and Sam in Morder on their way to Mt Doom.
-- there are the big orcs from Morder
-- there are Saruman's mutant big orcs
-- and probably more types shown, but this is what I remember right off.
Tolkein lets the origins of Orcs stay unclear; he mentions the theory they were created by Melkor from captured elves in the first age, but this is never stated as the definite origin anywhere I can recall (and I've read Hobbit, LoTR, Silmarillion, Lost Tales, and a bit more).
Tony
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Post #23,474
1/8/02 10:23:14 AM
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goblins are to orcs what gollum was to bilbo
unassociated and degenerated from the rest usually living underground. Like the Romanian Legion fighting with the German SS (although Tolkien has said he didnt specifically have Nazi SS in mind while thinking about orcs.)
my 2 cents
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
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Post #23,475
1/8/02 10:27:34 AM
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Or Myrdraal to Trollocs...
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Post #23,485
1/8/02 11:30:30 AM
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Goblins and Orcs
If you ask me, Goblins and Orcs were created by magic, which mutated them. It apparently has different results on different races.
In the movie, that Gandalf's Guild Master said that Orcs were once Elves before the evil magic changed them. Maybe because the ones he had in his army were once Elves, they are big. If other Orcs were once Dwarves or Hobbits, they are smaller.
Also wasn't Gollum something else, like a Hobbit or Human, before the ring turned him into some sort of frog/lizard creature?
"In order to completely solve a problem, you must make sure that the root of the problem is completely removed! If you leave the root, the problem will come back later to get you." - Norman King
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Post #23,489
1/8/02 11:34:46 AM
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Yup, Gollum used to be... Spoiler warning! (?)
...a hobbit.
Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything
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Post #23,490
1/8/02 11:35:49 AM
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That was the speculation in the book, at least.
It was left open-ended IIRC.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #23,497
1/8/02 11:58:13 AM
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hobbits in general were animorphes, humanoid otters or
oterised humans, many of the characterictics of both. Gollum was a pre-hobbit, his advanced age and mutations degrading his humanoid characteristics. Hobbits were sleek and round thats why I dont get the movie visuals. (might go see it tommorow.)
thanx,
bill
My Dreams aren't as empty as my conscience seems to be
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Post #23,501
1/8/02 12:04:04 PM
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For Marvel-comic values of "mutation". It don' work that way
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