Just as I said he would

9/29/05 12:23:34 AM

Ignore the reality all you want

The rules of engagement were established long ago.

The hue and cry that erupted when that procedure was followed was shouted loudly from you and brethren...and Ark and I on several occassions did make mention that the solution that you were seeking/promoting would NOT meet with your approval.

Guess what.

We must have extra-sensory perception..or perhaps a bit of clairvoyance...because here comes the proposal to bring the Fed in first...without state approval.. men in green with M16s to "keep order"...running roughshod over the principles of federalism (you know...exactly the crap you were complaining that they DIDN'T do post Kathy) and MY GOD WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT? He can't possibly expect us to allow the Fed to do what we cursed them for not doing a short 3 weeks ago.

We both predicted this...along with alot of other folks (but they may be in corners of the net that make you sneeze when you click there)

Allergically yours....

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,038

9/29/05 1:29:36 AM

Bull

Bottom line is this dog didn't come when it was called and it WAS called on time.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush

Post #227,060

9/29/05 8:44:44 AM

You still ignore the rules.

And I have YET to speak to a first responder who disagrees...and I know quite a few.

They know how the system works.

But the hue and cry was clear...the ARMED FORCES were to be called to restore order.

That is simply NOT the way it is supposed to work.

And when proposed...

well here we are.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,087

by jb4

9/29/05 10:49:45 AM

9/29/05 10:51:24 AM

Whose hue? Whose cry?

Doesn't that felt tipped pen with which you so conveniently rewrite history ever run dry?!?

The hue and cry (I've got to get it straight that it's "hue" and not "hew"...) was for getting relief supplies in place quickly...you know, that nasty stuff like food, water, ice (which your boy Brownie said was soooo unnecessary) blankets, cots, sanitation facilities.... There was no "hue and cry" for military until, after some three days without the above-listed necessities, order broke down.

You see, BeeP, if the most basic needs of the populace (yes, even the poor populace) are properly met, the need for M-16's tends to be exponentially reduced.

But of course, The Berk hasn't met a problem that an Armored personnel carrier couldn't fix...(Well, there is that little dust-up in some hobunk little country in the Middle East, but we don't want to go there, now do we?)

So we have to ask ourselves, who's doing the hueing and crying that you're constantly referring to? Certainly not the people who were not served during the disaster (and the disaster that followed the disaster). Certainly not those who were completely overwhelmed by the magnitude of the disaster vis-a-vis the resources available to help. And not those "first responders' you raise as the strawman-du-seconde. NO, I only hear your hue and cry from those who have absolutely no interest in actually serving those whom they are charged with serving, but rather from those who only want to rule.

Interesting how you would champion the ruling part, but not the serving part.

jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

Edited by jb4 Sept. 29, 2005, 10:51:24 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #227,097

9/29/05 11:28:04 AM

Which Armed Forces?

which armed forces? US Military or National Guard? National Guard's belong to the state - or they're supposed to. They're paid for by the states (which is another sore point about deploying them to Iraq - your STATE taxes are being hijacked for that fiasco).

Anyhow, I support Bush being given nothing above clerk powers.

Post #227,182

by ben_tilly

9/29/05 5:53:18 PM

Do you need me to get my cousin's contact info?

I have numerous cousins who are firefighters in the Oregon area. While I haven't talked to them about this issue, I know them well enough to know what their opinion is going to be.

So if you really need to talk to a first responder who disagrees, that can be arranged.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #227,045

by Ashton

9/29/05 2:09:14 AM

9/29/05 2:12:16 AM

You can make it come out any way you want:

As usual - you want to dumb down the possibilities to some either/or as panders to the absurd idea that, increasing the power of an inept group - can somehow make up for their demonstrated overall incompetence. Brilliant, that.

Ya wants a recipe, eh? [I'll bet you do..]

Among choices are:
A) The reasonably sane (and AFAIK - extant) rules - that the Fed already Can take over *anytime* it perceives a chaotic situation and declares a National Emergency. BUT: this power is NOT a substitute for Government's duty to provide coordinated assistance, competently organized and expedititiously applied. Obv The Army et al - Must be Fed controlled - should their at-home service be needed.
(Help-service not bayonet-service.)

(B thru n) Rewrite a bunch of laws making the Fed the Official, not emergency organizer of All Things, henceforth. About as fine an idea as [FEMA + Fatherland Security] - all run by party hacks with no experience or cred.

Now, given the record of this Admin - its paranoid secrecy beyond that of any predecessors
(commencing with the silencing of Previous Presidential writings on Day 1);
its virtually sole motive for making every decision:
(that we've yet become aware of)
perceived political gain, including - every possible step to assure One-party permanence in power.
(~~ P.R.I. de Mexico) --

Given all that - methinks B thru n represent a much greater likelihood of additional threats to Constitutional law in the US than would:

simply, some clarification of A) and steps to edjakate the Managers / replace with Pros, all the remaining political hacks with patronage positions (a ploy used by cabals who don't really Want a functioning government.)

Making the C+C+C structure actually function! - would go a long way to obviating any need for further arrogation of Power to the likes of these (or any megalomaniacal successors): we are supposed to Learn from past naivete and mistakes, even if their perpetrators "never make any".

Oh, and -
I suspect that A) shall not actually work:
these people are incapable of creating and executing any viable plans - yet. Wouldn't it be foolish to expect Objectively Infallible folk to - change?
That would require Admitting Error. Zealots are incapable of such heresy.

Oh, yes too -
..hold the mayo, hold the onions - hold the Faith-based addena, in this process - Please.

edit typoo

Even if it is doomed(?) Let it/them fuck-up without making (their or Someone's) God a scapegoat: again.
OK? Governments are responsible for dealing with the physical world. Period.

Edited by Ashton Sept. 29, 2005, 02:12:16 AM EDT

Expand All History

Post #227,064

by JayMehaffey

9/29/05 9:31:04 AM

You have lost me

The rules of engagement were established long ago.

The hue and cry that erupted when that procedure was followed was shouted loudly from you and brethren...and Ark and I on several occassions did make mention that the solution that you were seeking/promoting would NOT meet with your approval.

Guess what.

We must have extra-sensory perception..or perhaps a bit of clairvoyance...because here comes the proposal to bring the Fed in first...without state approval.. men in green with M16s to "keep order"...running roughshod over the principles of federalism (you know...exactly the crap you were complaining that they DIDN'T do post Kathy) and MY GOD WHAT IS HE TALKING ABOUT? He can't possibly expect us to allow the Fed to do what we cursed them for not doing a short 3 weeks ago.

What are you talking about?

Jay

Post #227,065

by drewk

9/29/05 9:39:20 AM

"Where was the federal government?"

When Katrina hit, some people wanted to know why the feds didn't send in troops to keep order. Now they're working on legislation to give the feds the power to do just that and some people are saying that the feds shouldn't be taking over.

Vastly simplified, of course. And possibly not the same people asking the questions in both instances, but in an environment of "if your not fer us yer agin us", it's "they" in both cases.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #227,143

by GBert

9/29/05 3:57:20 PM

Re: "Where was the federal government?"

"When Katrina hit, some people wanted to know why the feds didn't send in troops to keep order."

The KKK/Blackwater people may have wondered that -- what the rest of us want to know is why the feds didn't send in *food, water and meds*. Also why the feds *prevented* private parties and other oganizations, including some military, from sending in food water and meds.

No amount of "but first -- send the marines" is of any help there at all.

Have whatever values you have. That's what America is for.
You don't need George Bush for that.

Post #227,145

by drewk

9/29/05 4:07:11 PM

Good point

The original question was, "Where are the feds?"

Bush pushes for legislation authorizing troops, and people say, "Whoa, I didn't say troops!"

Once again, solving the wrong problem.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #227,067

9/29/05 9:48:40 AM

Little things...

...like not allowing the armed forces to police inside the US. That rule has existed for a hundred years or so.

FEDERALISM is a concept that founded this country.

FEMA being 3rd in the response line is fairly well established also.

But since ITS ALL BUSH'S FAULT...that means the only fault lies with the Fed, who up until now were supposed to be the last to respond...

So the solution is to change the rules. Make them first responders.

That is what we told you would happen. And we told you that you wouldn't like it. And it happened. And you don't like it.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,070

by mmoffitt

9/29/05 9:51:40 AM

>/dev/null

bcnu,
Mikem

It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell

Post #227,071

9/29/05 9:52:47 AM

And what was inaccurate?

Your ignorance is your bliss.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,074

by imric

9/29/05 9:58:40 AM

Well, Homeland Security

already had the authority to go in. Emergency was declared, they could do it.

They didn't.

Thier failure was NOT the result of a lack of Federal powers. Granting still more power to the Fed is a stupid power-grab, no more, no less. Of course, the FACT that such things are SOP for this government has nothing to do with the derision this act is met with, is it?

[link|http://www.runningworks.com|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #227,075

9/29/05 9:59:52 AM

Yup.

Post #227,080

by drewk

9/29/05 10:12:41 AM

I know I've said this before, but ...

It's just like drunk driving laws. We don't enforce the ones we've already got, so lets just pass more laws, make more people criminals, give more power to the police.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Post #227,081

9/29/05 10:21:02 AM

It's cheap, easy and photogenic to Pass laws....

If Congress got 10% as much credit for repealing laws as enacting new ones, well ...; they'd put too many lobbyists out of business.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #227,090

by JayMehaffey

9/29/05 11:03:13 AM

Your missing the huge redirect here

FEMA was the biggest screw up of the disaster. They pretty much failed across the board. But the reason for that failure has nothing to do with lack of federal authority. It has entirly to do with bad management.

FEMA and the President have all the authority they need, including sending in the National Guard.*

Bush's proposal does not address the actual problem. The real problems where poor leadership and management. The state and city government could have handled the disaster better. The city should have delt with survivors better and the state government should have organized things better before the storm hit. But FEMAs reactions where so poor that they ended up activly making it worse.

This is pretty common theme of Bush's presidency. Most of the things he has delt with or tried to deal with where real problems. From social security to tort reform, they where and are situations that could fixing. But the proposals put forth by Bush don't even address the real problems, nor are they designed to. Rather they use the problem as cover to put forth the administrations agenda.

Jay

* Don't buy any arguments about the Posse Comitatus Act preventing the President from sending the guard in. The president already has the authority to call them up and send them in under Federal authority. When operating under Federal authority they are subject to Posse Comitatus, but that act already has exceptions for domestic violence.

Post #227,887

by Arkadiy

10/3/05 9:46:46 PM

FEMA was NOT the biggest screw up

They did about as expected - 5 to six days after the disaster. The biggest screw up was on the part of the PC mayor on NOLA. He is doing a very succesful redirect indeed, not without your help.

The two solutions available to this problem would be to sweep the incompetent bastard out of office, or to give the job to the Feds. You folks asked for the Feds. The only federal agency with the manpower to do what local police and firefighter should be doing, and do it across the country, all at the same time, now, and not in 10 years - yes, that the military. "Brother, you asked for it".

------

179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]

Post #227,893

by Silverlock

10/3/05 10:04:04 PM

What are you smoking?

Or are you just pushing an untenable position for the sake of argument? We've seen FEMA respond on the same fscking day in past disasters. This was an unmitigated failure of management. The agency that rsponded to other disasters with competence in the past, failed to do so under the shrub admin.

Hand waving aside, they should have done better.

I have a bet with myself on the who and how of responses, I'll let y'all know how it goes.

-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.

--Donald Dean Richards Jr.

Post #227,909

by inthane-chan

10/4/05 12:26:39 AM

Accountability.

The mayor of NOLA was not elected by me, and isn't responsible for my safety. If he's incompetent, that's the problem of the people who got him into office, and live under him. They need to clear him out.

Who IS accountable to me is the Fed - and they're the ones who would be walking in after a 9.0 in Seattle, trying to help out picking up the pieces. Right now, I'd almost rather just try to survive on my own than let Bush's FEMA come in and pick up the pieces.

When somebody asks you to trade your security for freedom, it isn't your freedom they're talking about.

Post #227,910

10/4/05 12:46:32 AM

Well said, but remember that FEMA is tiny.

Brown was right that FEMA just helps coordinate things. [link|http://www.fema.gov/about/history.shtm|FEMA]:

Today, FEMA is one of four major branches of DHS. About 2,500 full-time employees in the Emergency Preparedness and Response Directorate are supplemented by more than 5,000 stand-by disaster reservists.

When [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Rainier|Mt. Ranier] blows, FEMA's not going to be able to do much with 2500 people. Their mission is to coordinate other levels of government and agencies in responding.

That said, FEMA did a terrible job at coordination. Whether it was because they were overwhelmed, or didn't follow the existing plans, or the plans were inadequate, or were simply incompetent (or all of the above), I can't say.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #227,922

by imric

10/4/05 7:01:12 AM

FEMA was gutted

and largely absorbed into DHS. I'm not surprised that it ddn't function as it once did, it couldn't.

If it wasn't tragic, I'd be laughing at the Bush admin, they created a huge bureaucracy with many faces for the purpose of reacting quickly to crises. What morons.

[link|http://www.runningworks.com|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #227,946

by inthane-chan

10/4/05 11:32:31 AM

Exactly my point.

The current crew is so incompetent they can't find their own asses with both hands. I'd rather that people who know the local area set something up on their own, than deal with that crew. Even if we had to rebuild our own C3 from scratch, we'd probably do a better job.

When somebody asks you to trade your security for freedom, it isn't your freedom they're talking about.

Post #227,936

by JayMehaffey

10/4/05 9:42:55 AM

Re: FEMA was NOT the biggest screw up

They did about as expected - 5 to six days after the disaster. The biggest screw up was on the part of the PC mayor on NOLA. He is doing a very succesful redirect indeed, not without your help.

The 5 to 6 days was a huge screw up itself. Part of the major goal of an emergency response organization has to be the ability to respond quickly to a disaster with little or no warning. In this case they had days to prepare ahead of time and still blew it.

Nor did they respond as expected. In fact, their attempts at cordination where so poor they had the effect of blocking aid from reaching the city. Many aid groups reported being kept from getting to the disaster area by FEMA. Some groups where told to wait until notified by FEMA, and then simply forgotten, others where told to go home. Help really only began reaching NOLA when the bigger groups simply started ignoring FEMA.

The two solutions available to this problem would be to sweep the incompetent bastard out of office, or to give the job to the Feds. You folks asked for the Feds. The only federal agency with the manpower to do what local police and firefighter should be doing, and do it across the country, all at the same time, now, and not in 10 years - yes, that the military. "Brother, you asked for it".

And you know what. FEMA already has the authority to use the national guard in disaster areas. But their management was so messed up they couldn't get the guard called up correctly, let alone get them out in the field doing anything when they should have.

Bush's proposed changes will not make the country better prepared to deal with a disaster, but they would make the military better prepared to implement martial law.

Jay

Post #227,950

by jake123

10/4/05 11:54:49 AM

10/4/05 12:06:42 PM

My personal guess

Is that Brown's being sacrificed for the sake of Chertoff.

Edit: I can't believe I just typed that.

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by jake123 Oct. 4, 2005, 12:06:42 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #227,952

by imric

10/4/05 12:01:12 PM

Aye.

[link|http://www.runningworks.com|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #227,956

by Yendor

10/4/05 12:08:12 PM

Why else would they have hired him back as a conslutant?

To give plausible cover for his pay-off and testimony in front of Congress sayin' bad things about Nagin and the Louisiana Governatress.

-YendorMike

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania

Post #227,960

10/4/05 12:35:23 PM

Um...

[link|http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/09/26/katrina/main886323.shtml|CBS News]:

(CBS/AP) Former FEMA director Michael Brown is continuing to work at the Federal Emergency Management Agency at full pay, with his Sept. 12 resignation not taking effect for two more weeks, said Homeland Security Department spokesman Russ Knocke.

CBS News Correspondent Gloria Borger reports that Knocke told her that technically Brown remains at FEMA as a "contractor" and he is "transitioning out of his job." The reason he will remain at FEMA about a month after his resignation, said the spokesman, is that the agency wants to get the "proper download of his experience."

During that time, Brown will advise the department on "some of his views on his experience with Katrina," as he transitions out of his job, Knocke told the Associated Press.

His salary as FEMA director was [link|http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0905/092705c2.htm|$148,000] per year. $12,333.33/mo gross. He would probably make a lot more than $12k becoming a celebrity criticizing the administration if he so chose.

I take the reason given by the DHS spokesman at face value. FWIW. YMMV.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #227,964

10/4/05 12:49:45 PM

Disagree

DHS/FEMA's job is to coordinate actions of disparate emergency services.

FEMA was put on the job about 48-36 hours before the storm arrived.

The relief efforts were tremendously uncoordinated (chaotic would be a better word).

So...

DHS/FEMA failed to perform its function.

Add to this amazingly [link|http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/27/national/nationalspecial/27text-brown.html?pagewanted=all|clueless testimony] like:

BROWN: I think it's wrong for the federal government to be in the ice business, providing ice so I can keep my beer and Diet Coke cool.

(UNKNOWN): How about the need to keep bodies from rotting in the sun?

Had you visited Hancock County, which you didn't, you would have met a gentleman named Edmund Faise (ph). He was given the grisly task of trying to preserve the bodies. They were stacked up at his local mortuary. He had no power. And he literally came to me, tears in his eyes and said, You have got to find me a freezer truck because these bodies are rotting in my driveway.

BROWN: And we had refridge (ph) trucks available throughout the region to store...

(UNKNOWN): Two days later.

BROWN: ... bodies.

(UNKNOWN): Two days later, sir.

Again, Mr. Brown, the more I listen to you, I'm thinking you're probably a great attorney, but you were way over your head in your capacity at FEMA.

JEFFERSON: I reclaim my time for a moment here.

The ice is also used not for the dead, but to keep people from dying. In nursing homes, one of the major reasons that old people just suffered and died is because there was no ice, there was no way for them to refresh themselves and the heat was suffocating.
-----------------
The man has no clue about what is required.

Post #227,983

10/4/05 1:53:38 PM

Nor is it his job to know those details

yet he will still be grilled on them.

And even an effective head of the department would likely not be able to answer complete details of everything that goes on.

Yes he failed. So did everyone else involved. I still think that so much focus is on the Fed failure that it is essentially giving the locals a free pass, which is doing the people of NO a great disservice. They should be intimately aware that the spectacular nature of the Federal failure is even more pronounced because of the spectacular failure of local and state.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,991

by jake123

10/4/05 2:10:42 PM

I dunno about that analysis

Look, the locals were boxed right from the start. This was far far bigger than 9/11 for local emergency services; in NY they still had a >99% functional city to back them up, while this was absolutely not the case in NOLA, and the mayor did do the mandatory evacuation order ahead of time, as well as ask for help.

The state also asked for help ahead of time; this has now been quite well documented, and while NOLA was a basket case, so was a lot of the rest of the state.

FEMA had lost a lot of their experienced and knowledgeable staff; ISTR reading somewhere around 40% in the last couple of years, as the functions were absorbed into DHS and the people were let go.

It seems pretty clear that Brown doesn't know how to manage his way out of a paper bag; I mean I'm not great, but I can make it out of the bag, YKWIM? Further, he pretty clearly has zero field knowledge, and hasn't apparently done a lot to get it since he started working there.

Personally, I think it's Chertoff who dropped the ball; I've read indications that he was in fact supposed to be the point man and didn't hand it off to FEMA for a few days. Brown is just a better scapegoat and is more expendable, esp. since FEMA is old school while DHS is the current administration's baby, and they don't want their baby getting any mud on it.

I'd like to point out that Paul Martin was on the phone the same day the hurricane hit offering help to the US: that means he was talking to GWB; the situation is not one where you hand off the PM of Canada offering labour and ships to some flunky in State. The Canadian government didn't hear back for over a week. I mean not one peep; nothing, nada, absolute silence. I have this on a good source; that would be Hugh Segal, former Chief of Staff for Brian Mulroney (who was great buds with both Reagan and Bush Sr.; Mr. Segal has met both of them) and current Senator, has held a chair in Policy Studies at my university, and has lived in Kingston for many many years.

Nothing, not one single peep. Not even an email. He was astonished by it, and his opinion seems to be (judging by the general tenor of his comments) that your current administration is the most incompetent that he's ever had contact with, and quite possibly the most incompetent in your history... and he's not a left wing knee jerker by any stretch.

Can I point to a source? No, he'd never let himself be quoted on the record saying that. That was from a conversation down at the corner store run by the Kofinis family, who sold him candy when he was going to high school across the street (and who also happen to be good friends of mine as I used to drink at the pubs and catch bands with the two sons).

--\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n* Jack Troughton                            jake at consultron.ca *\n* [link|http://consultron.ca|http://consultron.ca]                   [link|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca|irc://irc.ecomstation.ca] *\n* Kingston Ontario Canada               [link|news://news.consultron.ca|news://news.consultron.ca] *\n-------------------------------------------------------------------

Post #227,993

10/4/05 2:20:25 PM

I certainly understand that

and agree that the federal response was poor, at best.

And all the "big things", like force evac and ask for emergency declaration early were all done.

BUT, Google Earth shows the busses. Right next to the Superdome. But Nagin didn't want to use school busses cause they weren't "coaches" (cushy seats, greyhound style). Sorry, that kind of ineptness early isn't lost on me. He had a way to nearly clear the superdome before the water came...and they sat, all over the city, they sat.

I can't hold FEMA accountable for that. Or DHS. Or GWBush.

Count them. Imagine they had 2 days to move 50+ passengers per in 4 hour cycles to clear the city over 3 days. Realize that those in the pictures weren't the only available.

20000 people per day could have been removed from the city just with the busses in that lot. Superdome could have been cleared every day.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,997

10/4/05 3:06:46 PM

Source for Nagin on "coaches"? TIA.

Post #227,998

by drewk

10/4/05 3:12:01 PM

10/4/05 3:21:59 PM

google://nagin coaches

[link|http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/8/114045.shtml|http://www.newsmax.c.../9/8/114045.shtml]

"I need 500 buses, man," he told WWL. "One of the briefings we had they were talking about getting, you know, public school bus drivers to come down here and bus people out of here."

Nagin described his response:

"I'm like - you've got to be kidding me. This is a natural disaster. Get every doggone Greyhound bus line in the country and get their asses moving to New Orleans."

When I first read that, I thought he was saying that just the school buses wouldn't be enough, that "they" should be sending everything. But looking back, he never did use what he already had.

[edit]

[link|http://news.yahoo.com/s/chitribts/offerofbusesfellbetweenthecracks|This] is interesting:

Peter Pantuso of the American Bus Association said he spent much of the day on Wednesday, Aug. 31, trying to find someone at the
Federal Emergency Management Agency who could tell him how many buses were needed for an evacuation, where they should be sent and who was overseeing the effort.

"We never talked directly to FEMA or got a call back from them," Pantuso said.

Pantuso, whose members include some of the nation's largest motor coach companies, including Greyhound and Coach USA, eventually learned that the job of extracting tens of thousands of residents from flooded New Orleans wasn't being handled by FEMA at all.

Instead the agency had farmed the work out to a trucking logistics firm, Landstar Express America, which in turn hired a limousine company, which in turn engaged a travel management company.

...

Though it was well-known that New Orleans, much of it below sea level, would flood in a major hurricane, Landstar, the Jacksonville company that held a federal contract that at the time was worth up to $100 million annually for disaster transportation, did not ask its subcontractor, Carey Limousine, to order buses until the early hours of Aug. 30, roughly 18 hours after the storm hit, according to Sally Snead, a Carey senior vice president who headed the bus roundup.

Landstar inquired about the availability of buses on Sunday, Aug. 28, and earlier Monday, but placed no orders, Snead said.

She said Landstar turned to her company for buses Sunday after learning from Carey's Internet site that it had a meetings and events division that touted its ability to move large groups of people. "They really found us on the Web site," Snead said.

I want that contract. Get paid $100-million a year to be on call in case of emergency. When it happens, check the internet, find someone who actually does what you're on call for, and hire them to do it.

===

Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]

Edited by drewk Oct. 4, 2005, 03:21:02 PM EDT

Edited by drewk Oct. 4, 2005, 03:21:59 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #228,001

10/4/05 3:21:21 PM

Thanks. OTOH...

[link|http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16583811%255E2703,00.html|The Australian]:

September 13, 2005

NEW Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin has defended himself against charges that he botched the rescue effort in his flooded city, saying he had no choice but to abandon hundreds of school buses to the floodwaters.

The buses could have been used later to rescue people, but Mr Nagin said they were left at a depot because he had no drivers to move them.

Photos of the swamped buses have been political dynamite for Mr Nagin's critics, who along with Louisiana Governor Kathleen Blanco attacked the federal response to Hurricane Katrina, saying there were not enough buses sent to New Orleans to rescue the more than 40,000 people stranded in the city centre.

But the images of submerged school buses in New Orleans indicated there had been no plan to get them to higher ground.

"Sure, there was lots of buses out there," Mr Nagin told NBC's Meet the Press yesterday.

"But guess what? You can't find drivers that would stay behind with a category-five hurricane, you know, pending down on New Orleans.

"We barely got enough drivers to move people on Saturday and Sunday, to move them to the Superdome. We barely had enough drivers for that.

"So, sure, we had the assets, but the drivers just weren't available."

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #228,032

10/4/05 6:26:51 PM

My only issue with that statement...

is that

use people AT the superdome as the drivers...run through, find drivers on the fly, go from there.
use police officers as the drivers

Post #228,057

10/4/05 8:52:28 PM

When?

If one believes [link|http://www.thinkprogress.org/katrina-timeline|this timeline], when should the buses have been used?

Sunday evening the 28th there were ~ 30,000 people at the Superdome. There was already reports of the levees being breeched.

The storm came ashore at [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina|6:10 am on Monday the 29th]. At 2 pm the city confirmed that a levee had breached.

So when should the buses have been driven away? Presumably before the parking lot was flooded, but presumably after the storm passed. But when exactly?

It's easy to say that it was Nagin's responsibility to have drivers for the buses, and have procedures in place. Maybe so. But I really doubt that New Orleans (or Louisiana for that matter) has a budget that sets aside money to pay bus drivers during a hurricane. Yeah, they probably should have been parked the buses on higher ground (somewhere...), and should have had plans in place to evacuate the people (somewhere...) when the storm passed when it was clear that people couldn't go home. But I think Nagin did a pretty good job considering how much worse it might have been.

My one hope is that some independent commission (not tied to the Mayor, Governor or the Federal Government) studies what happened, what worked and what didn't, and prepares a clear report.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #228,082

10/5/05 12:37:31 AM

As soon as evac notice was declared

it was in their plan, they were reponsible to get those without transport out of the city.

So the direct answer is...before the storm.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,083

10/5/05 12:43:04 AM

Then why was anyone at the Superdome?

If everyone could be evacuated, there would be no need for shelter in the city, right?

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #228,085

10/5/05 12:46:41 AM

Good question

had the busses been moving (like they were supposed to), there might not have been any.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,088

by Ashton

10/5/05 2:04:08 AM

Well, let's just throw in another contingency - while we're

at it:

Might not a sane, intelligent Mayor have decided, on basis of best information available (whatever Was? the condition of believable/informed communications at various stages) -- that the prospect of a bunch of busses becoming swamped in nowhereville -- outweighed arguments for a heroic drive outta there?

Etc.

I think we'll have to await that mythical Funded-but-Unbiased Official Investigation. Maybe by '07? (Unless Martial Law has been declared in the interim, of course.)

Post #228,096

10/5/05 8:15:02 AM

Unlikely.

According to the 2000 Louisiana hurricane [link|http://www.ohsep.louisiana.gov/plans/EOPSupplement1a.pdf|evacuation and sheltering plan (supplement 1a)] (45 page .pdf):

p.9-10:

2. Evacuation will be carried out in three phases, as follows:

a. Precautionary / Voluntary:

This phase will concentrate on people who are most vulnerable to a hurricane and the effects of both water and wind. It is directed at offshore workers, persons on coastal islands or in wetlands areas and persons aboard boats. No special traffic control, transportation, or sheltering measures will be taken.

b. Recommended Evacuation:

This phase is enacted when a storm has a high probability of causing a significant threat to people living in the areas at risk. Parish and State government authorities will recommend that persons at risk evacuate. The parishes will designate staging areas for persons needing transportation, if necessary.

c. Mandatory:

This is the final, most serious phase of evacuation. Authorities will put maximum emphasis on encouraging evacuation and limiting ingress. Designated State evacuation routes maybe augmented by turning additional lanes into one-way outbound traffic and the State Police with Local law enforcement assistance will assume responsibility for traffic control on those routes. As the storm gets close to the Southeast Region, evacuation routes will be closed and the people remaining will be directed to last resort refuges.

Emphasis added.

The [link|http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Hurricane_Katrina|timeline] at the Wikipedia says that Nagin called for a voluntary evacuation on Saturday andn Nagin and Blanco ordered a mandatory evacuation at 1000 AM on Sunday. The hurricane hit at 6:00 AM on Monday - 20 hours later. Annex D of that .pdf is supposed to have tables of times necessary to evacuate under various conditions, but they're not present.

20 hours seems like a long time, and more people certainly should have been moved out of the city before the storm hit. But I think it's unreasonable to expect that in an area of over 1 M people that thousands wouldn't be able to leave even if buses were available. (Remember the traffic jambs for people trying to evacuate areas of Texas before Rita hit.)

Continuing from the .pdf, p.II-1 - II-2:

Assumptions:

3. All Parish Emergency Preparedness Offices, along with the Louisiana Office of Emergency Preparedness (LOEP) will be in communications with one another in the preparatory period, during and following the emergency.

4. Intra-parish alerting and coordination activities with all departments and agencies having emergency responsibilities will occur. Those functions necessary for alerting, coordination and the protection of life and property will be accomplished in accordance with the Emergency Operations Plans (EOPs) in each parish.

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

6. School Districts will close schools when requested to do so by the parish Office of Emergency Preparedness, and when it is deemed necessary to do so for the public\ufffds safety.

7. A portion of the public will act in their best interest and voluntarily evacuate the high-risk areas before a recommended evacuation announcement.

8. Voluntary evacuation will be advised well in advance of landfall. Much of the public will evacuate high-risk areas when recommended by local authorities. Most will evacuate following a mandatory evacuation order.

9. The need to evacuate could occur day or night, and there may be little control over the starting time due to the timing of the storm.

10. Manpower and equipment of the political subdivisions will be exhausted and outside support will be needed.

11. Many evacuees will seek shelter with relatives, friends or in motels/hotels in host areas and not use public shelters.

12. Risk area parishes will not normally open shelters for a catastrophic hurricane, with certain exceptions. Officials will direct residents to evacuate out of the way of the storm surge. Public shelter located outside risk areas will be needed for large numbers of evacuees.

13. Last resort refuges, will be required for those individuals who do not evacuate the risk areas.

14. Hospitals, nursing homes, group homes, etc. will have pre-determined evacuation and/or refuge plans if evacuation becomes necessary. All facilities will have approved Multi-Hazard Emergency Operations Plans as mandated by the State of Louisiana, Dept. of Health and Hospitals (DHH). Before operating permits are given to homes/hospitals, emergency precautions are to be taken, such as the placement of emergency supplies and equipment (i.e., generators and potable water) on upper floors.

15. Maximum use of official evacuation routes out of the Region will be used based on plans described in Part IV of this plan.

16. Emergency Preparedness Offices will maintain close coordination with each other and keep each other informed of their actions on a timely, continuing basis.

17. As a hurricane causes the need for a mass evacuation from the Southeastern area, the Governor will declare a state of emergency that will require host parishes outside the risk area to open designated shelters.

18. Local governments in host areas will be responsible for traffic control from the limited access evacuation routes to the registration centers in their parishes.

Sounds good, but who exactly was to provide all these things? Only some of them are specifically assigned to any particular agency. In times of crisis, if there isn't a clear line of responsibility, people will assume that someone else is supposed to take care of it. (It's the old "Someone get help!" versus "You, in the green shirt, call 911 and tell them to send an ambulance to 123 Main Street!" problem.

Gotta run.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #228,107

10/5/05 9:30:36 AM

Did you not read your own post?

The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. [b]School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles[/b] and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

What government do you think they are talking about?

Saturday, August 27:

# President George W. Bush's weekly radio address focuses on Gaza withdrawal and the Iraqi constitution. He makes no mention of Hurricane Katrina.

# President Bush officially declares that a "state of emergency" exists in Louisiana and orders Federal aid to the affected areas to complement state and local relief efforts.

# 4:00 pm CDT: Per Governor Blanco's order, Contraflow begins , reversing all traffic on inbound interstate lanes and making more room for evacuating vehicles in outbound lanes.

# 5:00 PM CDT: New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin declares a State of Emergency and issues a voluntary evacuation order, saying he is having his legal team determine if he can order a mandatory evacuation without exposing the city to legal liability for the closure of hotels and other businesses.

Worried about getting sued slowed him down. Everyone is so damned intent on giving this guy a free pass. Busses should have started moving on SATURDAY. HIS city busses, supported by state vehicles. It was all in the plan that they did not follow.

But its all Gearge's fault. Or Brown. Or Chertoff. But never Mr. N.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,114

10/5/05 10:22:36 AM

It was late, but yes, I read it. :-)

(I started on it last night and finished it this morning.) You see different things in that snippet than I do.

The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

(Beep's emphasis, my emphasis).

What I don't see there is who is in charge of providing the school and municipal buses and the drivers for them. The city and parishes? The local transportation administration? The state? The school board? FEMA? The National Guard?

On your last bit, a couple of things:
1) I can't find the timeline you're taking that from. I'd like to see his words in context, rather than a paraphrase. (Recall that Nagin didn't demand "[link|http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/|"coaches"]...)
2) Criticizing Nagin for considering the legal implications of things is a bit much, IMHO. That's one thing that elected officials should to - consider the law in making orders. The mandatory evacuation order came 30 minutes after Bush's request, and simultaneously with the National Weather Service warning about the "devastating" storm.
3) I never said it was all Bush's fault. ;-) There's lots of blame to go around, but your defense of FEMA seems to go overboard. Few expect that FEMA should have shown up with 50,000 agents to grab every single person and move them to temporary housing. FEMA didn't do what they were supposed to do (for whatever reason) - things that they apparently did much better in the past. Brownie's comments about ice were just one example of things that happened and things that were said that were beyond the pale.

I think I've beaten this particular horse to a pulp.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #228,117

10/5/05 10:37:59 AM

Re: It was late, but yes, I read it. :-)

[link|http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/katrina-timeline.php|http://www.talkingpo...rina-timeline.php]

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,132

10/5/05 11:13:14 AM

That's not quite what the Times-Picayune story said.

Thanks.

[link|http://www.nola.com/news/t-p/frontpage/index.ssf?/base/news-4/1125213007249320.xml|Nola.com]:

By mid-afternoon, officials in Plaquemines, St. Bernard, St. Charles, Lafourche, Terrebonne and Jefferson parishes had called for voluntary or mandatory evacuations.

New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin followed at 5 p.m., issuing a voluntary evacuation.

Nagin said late Saturday that he's having his legal staff look into whether he can order a mandatory evacuation of the city, a step he's been hesitant to do because of potential liability on the part of the city for closing hotels and other businesses.

"Come the first break of light in the morning, you may have the first mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," Nagin told WWL-TV.

Versus the [link|http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/katrina-timeline.php|TPM] version:

5:00 PM CDT: New Orleans Mayor C. Ray Nagin declares a State of Emergency and issues a voluntary evacuation order, saying he is having his legal team determine if he can order a mandatory evacuation without exposing the city to legal liability for the closure of hotels and other businesses.

That's hardly the same thing.

He said he was having his staff look into whether he can order an evacuation. My interpretation of the clause set off by the comma is that that was a comment by the reporter, not something Nagin said. His following statement in the NOLA.com story makes it clear that he thought a mandatory evacuation was in the cards.

FWIW.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #228,139

10/5/05 11:54:15 AM

Talk about semantics

Its EXACTLY the same thing.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,257

by Ashton

10/5/05 6:43:12 PM

Then cut to the chase -

Brown (and too bloody many "et alia" in this Admin) possess neither the experience, training, temperament nor fucking Intelligence - to have ever achieved a capability beyond saying,

Yes, Mr. President - I Adore You. Abjectly. Please make me Surgeon General?

{Sheesh} You Heard the sucker's pathetic speech in Congress.
Only question I see left, is: Are 93.7% of those appointments Just Like Him?
(or is it only 90?)

Oh. Yes.: Clearly, I am misunderestimating these bozos because they (say they) are 'Christians'. cha. cha. cha.

Post #228,273

10/5/05 8:20:15 PM

Another non-seq post

cha cha cha

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,295

by Ashton

10/5/05 9:37:32 PM

'Course Beep: competence Is irrelevant. cha cha

Post #228,356

10/6/05 7:59:41 AM

Has nothing to do with competence

unless, of course, the competence of which you speak is that of posting things of relevence to the current discussion thread...

...as opposed to following me around and trying to engage in a completely different subject.

You, of all people, should understand the definition of non-sequitur.

We've discussed competence ad nauseum...and it is lacking in many places. Simply because one is incompetent, does not mean all others are.

But, of course, you weakly allude to me having other opinions.

On the green in regulation. 2 putts. Par for your course.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,286

10/5/05 9:06:43 PM

Disagree. But back to the buses...

Tell me: Can you find another news article anywhere that mentions Nagin's "fear of lawsuits" that does not cite that NOLA article by Bruce Nolan? There doesn't seem to be a decent [link|http://www.wwltv.com/sharedcontent/search/index.jsp?process=true&site=WWLTV&go=go|archive at WWL-TV]; in the articles there I've not seen anything that mentions a comment like that. I'm beginning to think it may be apocryphal.

Either way, I see a difference in the statement from the NOLA article and the TPM version. You don't. Fine, we'll agree to disagree about that.

But getting back to the school buses. [link|http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Controversy_over_whether_New_Orleans_Mayor_failed_to_follow_hurricane_plan|This] Wikinews article has some interesting information:

It is unclear whether Mayor Nagin knew these particular buses existed, since the Orleans Parish School Board is not under his jurisdiction and his office would not normally know the location of OPSB bus yards or be able to contact the drivers of those buses to place them into service. Normally it is the job of FEMA to coordinate between the various local jurisdictions such as the OPSB and the City of New Orleans in this case. That is, under the rules of prior hurricane responses, FEMA would ask all local jurisdictions for a list of resources under their control. Then FEMA would have taken a request from Nagin for buses, relayed it to the Orleans Parish School Board or other local jurisdictions which had buses, and at that point the OPSB would have provided the buses to Nagin. That coordination did not happen here, but it is unclear whether Nagin ever made such a request prior to the hurricane and after the hurricane they were underwater and useless.

However, if he had known about them, the declaration of a state of emergency on August 26 gave him the right under Louisiana law to commandeer them for the duration of the emergency. The failure to issue a timely evacuation order in effect made it physically impossible to evacuate the nursing homes, hospitals, and those without automobiles.

Emphasis added.

Even this example is another indication of poor coordination all around - including our friends at FEMA.

I found [link|http://groups.google.com/group/alt.politics.bush/browse_frm/thread/75267f600f938967/9e056f578dfe5313?tvc=1&hl=en#9e056f578dfe5313|this] rant to be pretty interesting too. It points to [link|http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/theme_home2.jsp|this] page at DHS:

In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility on March 1st for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort.

Emphasis added.

One could read that as stating that DHS (and thus FEMA) should have had primary responsibility in the aftermath of Katrina.

In short: The loss of the buses is not all, and probably not primarily, Nagin's fault. IMHO.

Enough on this. :-)

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #228,292

10/5/05 9:35:56 PM

You're telling me you consider it understandable that the mayor of a city doesn't know about school busses?

And Todd is telling me Brown is unqualified because he doesn't know all the uses of ice in an emergency.

Things that make you go hmmm.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,313

by imqwerky

10/5/05 10:41:20 PM

How long are yall gonna beat this dead horse?

C'mon! It's glue already, OKAY?

Hugs and peace, sweeties,
Amy

Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!

Post #228,330

by Ashton

10/5/05 11:28:48 PM

Normally, a comparison w/ 'Nazi' ends a thread, by __'s Law

But in these parts, "See? - It was all Clinton's fault.." will do as well.

Maybe next ~ "BeeP sez that All Government Workers are The Same: they Suck"
(or something) Hell, maybe cha cha cha will serve...

Post #228,357

10/6/05 8:02:09 AM

Surprise, surprise

another ad-hominem.

You really want to have my babies, don't you?

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,499

by Ashton

10/6/05 6:34:41 PM

You've selected your own MO

"Yes, but - -" no matter how egregious some uncovered lie or sequence of same - not even during or after a massively propagandized first-ever Invasion:

"The other guys were bad, too.."

'This guy just killed his wife for not cleaning the kitchen well enough!'

"Yes, but - many men don't."

I'll likely continue mocking your information-free quips, just because they are There. You may ignore (as may I). Forums are open, and sometimes all we can get out of them is comic relief, especially where the position asserted is so gaurdedly neutered. Like so many of yours.

(Perhaps the terse nothingness is meant to imply a deep comprehension, which one does not deign to sully via its public revelation? Oh well then - I guess I lose, for missing that _profundity.)

Carrion

Post #228,510

10/6/05 7:26:03 PM

You're right

its a free country (or at least a free forum)..amd you have every equal right to keep that bug up your butt bout me too.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,521

by boxley

10/6/05 8:40:29 PM

ahem, spanish american war started with less evidence? hmm?

first ever? I think not. Bad habit we have of ginning up a war because someone else has what we want. Except for ww1 and ww2 all of the rest were jingoistic nonsense. I'll make an exception for Korea because they truly were afraid, not pretending to be so.
thanx,
bill

"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli

Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]

Post #228,539

by Ashton

10/6/05 10:20:24 PM

Well, didn't want to go back tothe free blankets for Indians

Post #228,359

by hnick

10/6/05 8:04:52 AM

For approximately as long as they are amused

to repeat the same blather without listening to the other points. This is not a convertent series. Neither will it reduce to a boolean. Eventually it will rightshift until the columns are about 3 characters wide and they will branch it.

Post #228,360

10/6/05 8:05:58 AM

Nah, pretty much done.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,413

by imqwerky

10/6/05 12:38:59 PM

Good one, hnick!

ver
y f
unn
y!

Pea
ce,
Amy

Oh Freddled Gruntbuggly!

Post #228,047

10/4/05 7:24:44 PM

Nit

It was HIS job to make sure he had drivers. Getting those people out before the storm was HIS job.

And you have him screaming at the government AFTER the storm because he failed to do HIS job.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,049

by Ashton

10/4/05 7:42:02 PM

Seems a dead-on conclusion

on this not-so-small detail of the overall fuckup: much of the most visible unnecessary idiocy had its ground-zero in that [unstocked] stadium.

He apparently showed about as much imagination and originality in this simple matter of 'drivers' -- as Shrub demonstrates, coming up with [nothing but meanest-intended trivia] he recommends be stripped from the recently-passed Windfall-Pork-Budget.

So then - how's the Aggregate National IQ doing, since say .. July/August 2001?
(and those uninspected files on the Guys Taking Flying Lessons\ufffd / No Landings, Please)

- Higher, lower? about the same..?

Post #227,999

by SpiceWare

10/4/05 3:16:30 PM

CNN link

not familiar with NewsMax

[link|http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/nagin.transcript/|http://www.cnn.com/2...nagin.transcript/]

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #228,002

10/4/05 3:22:05 PM

Thanks.

Post #228,004

10/4/05 3:24:30 PM

Vehemently disagree

You cannot "manage" what you do not understand, MBA programs to the contrary (which is why I like working here). IOW, if you are going to lead a disaster relief agency, I think you ought to know first aid, cpr, logistics, and some basic civil engineering. Otherwise, one must ask, what exactly is this "manager" for?

As the director of a relief agency, you ought to know what ice is for and why it is critical that it arrive. Ditto food, medicine, fuel. Plus, they had a practice just for this one year earlier, learned a number of things, and DID NOTHING to fix them.

You blame the local authorities (with good reason), but by this time they had made themselves subservient to FEMA - who was supposed to be the central coordinator. Plus, that's outside my area of concern. Lots of people screwed up. So? Doesn't mean FEMA didn't.

Post #228,048

10/4/05 7:29:24 PM

Your prerogative

And I bet major details would be understood..and when questioned on the "trivial" then might not have that level of understanding.

Your point here is that I would need to know all programming syntax in every language in order to manage a programmer. I don't agree with that.

And yes...FEMA screwed up. But focussing on FEMA and the FED like most everyone has is forcing their hand to "fix" it...and their method of "fixing it" (especially under this administration) is likely not to be to anyones liking.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #228,079

10/4/05 11:49:22 PM

Too far

>Your point here is that I would need to know all programming syntax in every language in order to manage a programmer. I don't agree with that.

You're putting words into my mouth. I said he needed to know where and why they need ice, not how to run the ice machine and drive the fucking trucks to deliver it. IOW, he needs the basic theoretical knowledge to understand how to do his job.

To continue with your analogy Brown would be mystified by a mouse.

Post #228,080

10/4/05 11:53:05 PM

:-) Well said.

Post #227,085

by jb4

9/29/05 10:36:15 AM

Reductio ab BeePium

Uhh, Bill...Your assumption (perhaps conveniently, so that your neener-neenerism would have something other than mere puffery behind it) that what Das Berk is proposing exactly matches the "hue and cry" is at once laughable and pathetic.

Oh, yeah, and also Wrong.

(Egad!! I'm turning Ashtonese...I really think so!)

Post #227,099

9/29/05 11:34:19 AM

OK, I get it now

this is about more MILITARY powers.

You said "the fed". Yes we expect "the fed"'s relief agencies to show up.

I don't think anyone here expected US Regular Soldiers to show up for anything more than SAR (chopper pilots, food bombers, water purifiers).

That's the problem with Bush - he thinks everything has a military solution. Itchy texas trigger fingers I guess.

Post #227,463

10/1/05 4:56:42 AM

No. Wrong.

People asked for more then Guard to retsore order. Honore is military brass. Thank God he`s here was the response...and why did it take so long.

All points made are vast simplications of the massive beaurocracy that is required to mobilize and it wasn`t designed to move first. Its bad enough (as you all saw) when expected to move 3rd.

And to all, I am handsweeping all critics together in the \ufffdhue and cry\ufffdstatement...not just those here, where perhaps only a subset of the \ufffdthey completely f@@@@ed up\ufffd arguments were made.

Other things may have come from guests of John Stewart or Bill Maher. Oft quoted heroes of our time.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,599

10/2/05 1:30:47 PM

Shorter BP...

And to all, I am handsweeping all critics together in the \ufffdhue and cry\ufffdstatement...not just those here, where perhaps only a subset of the \ufffdthey completely f@@@@ed up\ufffd arguments were made.

I can't answer specific individuals, but I'm blasting at them all.

Which, btw, legitimizes my attacks against Conservatives for comments made by Rush Limbaugh.
(Certainly John Stewart or Bill Maher speak for Liberals as Rush Limbaugh speaks for Conservatives, no?)

Post #227,606

10/2/05 2:24:25 PM

But I don't see those conservative arguments or pundits...

brought here in link form and huzzahed, do I?

Its fine. Deny simply because I don't feel it necessary to go, poster by poster, and pull all of the specific critiques given in the past 3 weeks that needed to "be solved" or that were specific shortcomings of this administration and the time to react.

I don't like the outcome any more than anyone else. I don't fault the Fed nearly as much as everyone else, either and don't think as many things needed to be "solved".

But I certainly knew this was coming. And I did mention it here more than once.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,617

by Ashton

10/2/05 5:13:33 PM

Of course there would have been finger-pointing in any case

but as to the emotional precursor to.. that inevitability, I offer -

{gedanken rewrite}

Suppose that, on Day 1 (or at most - 2)
Shrub had instantly ceased his 'fit and tanned regimen' / and especially.. Saying! er, "this is what I be doing!"

Suppose that he'd gone [wtf - - Somewhere!] striding dutifully -- swagger optional, (not 'Taking Charge' but) clearly overseeing the Taking of Charge, announcing periodically - a brief status report, etc: ie

BEING THERE!
(no, not the Peter Sellers version. Yet. That's the next Repo candidate, I wot.)

{back to Iraq/storm/indictments/nat'l bankruptcy/ $GAS$ + Winter! sub-reality}

Doncha think the chatter would have been a Lot Less negative -- all around?

I mean, the word disdainful came starkly to mind, Seeing those Crawford photo-op clips rerun, etc. (I mean, too: considering the sheer cumulative NUMBER of those days spent in exile; as intensifies any impression of a particular photo-op.)

Disdainful is Not the word you want on the tip of your tongue: when observing the CIEIO.
(Nor any akin... cocky, aloof? out-of-touch, insulated or even insular-personality ..? and such.)

Finally, even if he'd done that! -
IRAQ shall hang like a suppurating vampire, hanging upside-down - in every background. (So, who knows if even the above - would have much altered The Play? hmmm?)

Post #227,623

10/2/05 6:17:23 PM

Re: Of course there would have been finger-pointing

Doncha think the chatter would have been a Lot Less negative -- all around?

No, I don't. This President can do no right in the eyes of the opposition. The level of hatred (no lighter word will do) in the opposition to this administration is higher than at any time that I remember.

He's defintely earned it. But, simply put, POTUS could do everything right and would still get lambasted.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,629

by hnick

10/2/05 7:18:51 PM

Absolutely correct.

He does inspire hatred from about half the voting community. It is a major part of the problem: you can't be constructive if you haven't a real base to build on. He was elected by people who voted against their own interests because of short sighted, single interest issues. The slightly less than 50% will oppose him with a vigor that usually requires rabies. If it required a vote, he probably couldn't get laid in a whore house any time soon _{of course part of the problem would be that he'd be looking in a warehouse}
Well, it's just our good luck that we elected a uniter, rather than a divider...

Post #227,657

10/2/05 11:10:07 PM

Close...

He does inspire hatred from about half the voting community.

I think that's a very fair assessment.

We have gotten VERY partisan....and half the voting community (slightly less?) did not vote for Bush.

What I don't understand is the whining....this is NOT new. Certainly slightly less than half the voting community didn't vote for Clinton, and everything in BP's quote could apply to him just as easily. The other side was just as nasty to Clinton, yet they feel they ought to be priviledged for some reason.

Post #227,658

10/2/05 11:11:29 PM

Yup. I don't think Bush's been accused of murder and rape...

Post #227,662

10/2/05 11:52:25 PM

yet

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,666

by ben_tilly

10/3/05 12:17:21 AM

He's been accused of causing it to happen to many though

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #227,709

by jb4

10/3/05 10:01:33 AM

ICLRPD

of course part of the problem would be that he'd be looking in a warehouse

It even works out of context...

Post #227,677

10/3/05 1:25:07 AM

That's not true

>This President can do no right in the eyes of the opposition.

He could resign.

Actually, that wouldn't satisfy me as I believe he needs to be prosecuted for war crimes. I have a number of contacts in or formerly in the military and there's not a one who doesn't believe that our new fondness for torture starts at the very top and flows all the way down from there.

These people are a new kind of animal not seen in US government before.

Post #227,692

by imric

10/3/05 6:58:59 AM

He had a chance

quick action after 9/11. Urging the US citizenry against racism and bigotry agasinst all Muslims. Going after the actual perpetrators, considering them to be criminals - he made all the right moves immediately after. Then politics took over, and he was vile enough to use 9/11 for his own ends without actually doing anything about it.

He shocked me, by behaving as a President should. He could have gone down in history as one of the good ones, if he had been able to sustain it.

Instead, he reverted in short time. His entire administration degrades our nation; his acts are often assaults on the Constitution he is sworn to uphold. His policies are based on powerlust and greed, cronyism and lies. You talk about hatred, what of it? I DO hate what he is doing to our nation, to the Great Experiment. I make no bones about it - the man and his nominal lackies are slime. I see no reason to make up reasons to seem balanced about him and his Neocon junta - I will not stoop to the Neocon level and lie in order to gain support.

[link|http://www.runningworks.com|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #227,701

10/3/05 9:22:26 AM

Maybe with you.

Not so with many. Sure, had he done everything "right" from the beginning he could have won some over.

I guess I'm even more cynical about other admins versus this admin. Are tehy actually >more< crooked or just more open about it?

Heard Clinton talking about imperialist economics last night wrt Africa. It was MORALLY imperative as well as self interest. Somehow, though, when he says it some folks think it sounds great...if it were to come identically from the lips of GWB (though he'd likely mangle the pronounciation of the countries) it would be considered the worst type of policy imagined.

Dunno..I see it more as biz as usual.

If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. _{Fudd's First Law of Opposition}

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]

Post #227,708

by hnick

10/3/05 9:52:11 AM

Re: Other admins vs this one

It's hard to tell. This administration is so secretive that it's hard to know just how corrupt they really are. Other administrations did a lot of horse trading to get their agendas implemented, and admittedly some of those were fairly rotten. This administration wishes to rule, not lead. There is little negotiation, just demands and iron rule of the legislature. What is visible, the cronyism, no bid contracts, special interests, all look rotten, perhaps worse than it really is. But how to know? Most is hidden.
So if you're saying that other administrations were corrupt as well, there is no arguement. If you are saying that Crusader Bunnypants should get a pass because he's not as bad as others, I would disagree. I think Bush et al. is probably the worst thing to hit this country since the Civil War. And may cause another.

Post #227,745

10/3/05 12:24:27 PM

10/3/05 12:26:25 PM

Key difference I see

is that this one is a *system* designed to subvert the intent of the constitution.

Other admins actually mostly did their job while lining their own pockets. These guys don't do their jobs and don't just line their pockets, they line theirs and all their friends who often use the resources to kick the workers in the teeth.

These guys have also set human rights back about 100 years by fomenting their own terrorism/torture and throwing out the geneva convention. They are war criminals and should be tried and (most likely) executed.

IOW, these are FASCISTS. New animal in US History.

Edited by tuberculosis Oct. 3, 2005, 12:26:25 PM EDT

Expand All History

Post #227,747

10/3/05 12:26:37 PM

Now that I agree with...

Heard Clinton talking about imperialist economics last night wrt Africa. It was MORALLY imperative as well as self interest. Somehow, though, when he says it some folks think it sounds great...if it were to come identically from the lips of GWB (though he'd likely mangle the pronounciation of the countries) it would be considered the worst type of policy imagined.

The left is just as bad at this, imo.

If George talked about imperialist economies with any country, the left would be in arms. Hillary gets a freakin' free pass on it.

Post #227,231

9/29/05 11:21:39 PM

I don't mind it a bit....

course I wasn't asking for the military troops to be brought in with Katrina....and I've got way too much damn experience with hurricanes as of late.

but the part *I* like is that if Bush pushes for this thing....the fun part is to imagine scenerios in a few years of Hillary as President and able to direct US troops to "keep the peace".

<Evil Grin>

Yep....you can blame it on Liberals if you want....but it's Bush that's fighting for the right to do it. (I'm glad *I* didn't vote for him.)

(Sidenote: blaming Liberal for this probably won't stop it...you might consider yelling at the Bush apologists^H^H^Hbackers...and try to get them to change their minds.)

Post #227,235