Post #223,070
9/6/05 8:17:48 AM
|
Clinton is wrong
Or at least not completely right.
The Feds did what they were supposed to do: stepped in as second echelon, to improve the scope of local and state disaster relief. The problem was that state and local level failed completely and miserably, dooming people to hell on earth unil Feds came in force.
The main blame, IMHO, rests with the NO's mayor who failed to provide transportation for evacuating the desperately poor 10% (or was it 20%?) who could not take care of themselves. It's the mayor who should have used the school busses to get the people out of the city. It's the state governor who should have opened every school building 60 or more miles from the cost for the refugees. And I'd have hard time believing that the neighboring states would not cooperate w/o Federal involvement. They had at least three days to do all that, and did not.
After the hurricane struck, the local infrastructure was completely broken. It took time to realise just how completely. I am not sure it was possible to do better after the events, so I won't blame the Louisian authorities for not stopping riots. But I do have to say that they _did_ have some police, and they could claim the food in the flooded supermarkets as vital resource, and organise an orderly distribution, rather than the mob assault it turned out to be. "Grab the supplies now, pay later" should have been the order of the day.
And now I am going to say something that will get me flamed to death here. The main reason the things turned out the way they did was because the 1million people who could do something about keeping things orderly and calm did something beforehand: they left. The ones who stayed were the ones least prepared to cope with the catastrophy. It does not take much in these here USofA to earn a car. People who could not accomplish that were obviously not up to challenges. I am not even talking about sick, young, old and pregnant - the mayor's shame. I am talking about the able-bodied people who could have organised some sort of local order. About the manager and crew of that RiteAid that got looted. If they had stayed, the manager could have had authority to distribute food and water, thus obviating the need for real looting. But they left...
One quote from a guy who stayed behind is very telling: "This is ... miserable. We should just burn the ... city." well, if that's representatitive of the able-bodied people who stayed behind, it explains a lot. Another guy said: "I hoped that Haiti will one day look like New Orleans. Instead I see New Orleans turning into Haiti". Well, in my opinion, the difference between the two locations is not the level of flooding. It's the 1 million men and women who left.
------
179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
|
Post #223,084
9/6/05 9:42:23 AM
|
"It does not take much in these here USofA to earn a car."
Ya know what? I spent a LONG time trying to earn enough to get a car. Cars entail insurance. Cars entail registration and license fees. When you are eating mac'n'cheese or rice, when literally all your paycheck goes to 1) to staying alive and 2) paying bills (and then some; my debt was growing) a car is NOT possible. I know this, and I made considerably ABOVE minimum wage. A SS paycheck would have effectively put a goal like owning a car on the Moon.
You obviously have no idea of what you are saying here. Poor does NOT mean lazy, or incompetant, or stupid. It CAN mean desperate.
That statement (quoted in the title) is elitist CRAP. Damned straight you'll get flamed; you deserve every lick you get.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #223,120
9/6/05 1:14:58 PM
|
OK, so I did not get a car till I was on my second year
in the country (or was it a third?). I managed without. Did I have to? Not really. I could have gotten myself a wreck. If I wasn't living in Brooklyn, I would have. Box's example involves someone working for less than minimum wage, an illegal. A very different cattle of fish.
In any case, I can even concede the point about cars. The two main points still stand. The mayor should have taken care of the poor. The Astrodome should have been an evacuation hub, not a concentartion camp. FEMA is not the agency to do it.
And the kind of people who stayed behind were the wrong people. Do you have a car now? I think you do. Would you thrash a store that you had to break into to get food? I don't think so. If you stayed there, it would have been a blessing for the people around you. I suspect, even if you substract the sick and so on, substract the people down on their luck, you still get the majority of those left behind. The majority that made things worse for themselves by being who they are.
------
179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
|
Post #223,121
9/6/05 1:22:53 PM
|
minimum wage is 5.15 per hour, most jobs in NO are minimum
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #223,122
9/6/05 1:26:47 PM
|
Nit: *kettle* of fish
Altough your version conjures images of stampeding guppies. Git along.
===
Purveyor of Doc Hope's [link|http://DocHope.com|fresh-baked dog biscuits and pet treats].
[link|http://DocHope.com|http://DocHope.com]
|
Post #223,139
9/6/05 2:02:59 PM
|
Minor fix - Astrodome = Houston
Darrell Spice, Jr. [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
|
Post #223,144
9/6/05 2:07:36 PM
|
"If you stayed there?"
I have a car now, true. I moved away from NJ, my family, my friends, and the support base that was keeping me alive to get the job I have now. It was offered to me out of the blue; it was luck alone that I escaped poverty. If I had been moved to NO, there is NO FRIGGIN' WAY that I would have stayed. Had such a thing happened in NJ while I was in dire straits, I might have been trapped just as many in NO were (except that I'm sure that I could have hitched a ride with my friends - not everybody has the friends I do though); I would have been completely pissed off, I assure you. What happened there was that the 'haves' were given a plan to evacuate the poor were left to fend for themselves. The busses, even if they were used as planned, only shifted the poor around the doomed city. The poor, having been left on their own, having been left to live or die at the whim of a storm, took what they wanted in addition to what they needed, true. I sympathize (even if I probably would not have been among the looters) with them. It must have seemed like the one shot they were ever going to have to get nice things. The rationalization that the ones that owned the looted goods had left them there to die anyway probably made it easier, too. Remember, just because you are economically disadvantaged does NOT make you stupid. That's a Republican myth. As to the wrong people being left behind - well, you are right there - though I suspect for the wrong reason. The people that COULD have shifted for themselves should have been the last priority in an evacuation plan. The poor should have been the first priority. Those with the power (read: wealth) to find thier way out of the city should have been left to do so. "The majority that made things worse for themselves by being who they are." Once again, the Republican (and now Neocon) tactic of demonizing the poor. Being wealthy does not make you better IN ANY WAY than the poor. In fact, the opposite may be true; the isolation of the wealthy from the troubles of the world can make them numb, insensitive, it enable them to hold downright evil philosophies. Do you REALLY believe that if you took a relatively pampered multimillionaire away from toilets, food, and water, baked him in sweltering heat, surrounded him with death and destruction, and he knew that he had been left behind while others had escaped as part of a plan he'd be less likely to go apeshit and wreck stuff? I don't. [link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #223,181
9/6/05 3:53:11 PM
|
Interesting juxtaposition"
Those with the power (read: wealth) to find thier way out of the city should have been left to do so. Oooohh! Trickle UP! /me likes! jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
Post #223,257
9/6/05 8:34:42 PM
|
"Being" wealthy does not make you any better
"Getting" relatively well-off and able to afford what you need, most of the time, does. Getting truly "wealthy" may actually mean you're a thief. But most people in most places here just earn enough money for decent living. They don't get to become "pamepered millioners", but they do get to learn that nobody can be trusted to provide for you. And certainly not government.
(again, that being said, it was the Govt's duty to provide for those people. The fact that we know how "trustworthy" they are does not free them from providing services. The goddamn mayor did not have neither last nor first priorities, he simply announced that every man is for himself.)
Yes, we seem to agree that the people who could get the hell out of dodge would be the most valuable is they were to stay. May be the main lesson of this is that either you do a complete evacuation, forced if needed, or you evacuate no one, and ask (beg?) the people who can stabilize the situation to stay. As you say, you'd be the first man out, on your own car or with friends. It would be wrong for the govt to keep you in. But I guess they coudl ask...
------
179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
|
Post #223,264
9/6/05 8:48:23 PM
|
But where were the "Compassionate Conservatives?"
Isn't that what the New Right is supposed to be composed of? I mean, couldn't Heather Soccer Mom fit a few of the less fortunate in her HumVee to escape? I think the reason Dub's getting a little more heat this time is that this is the second time that his administration failed to heed warnings in August (8/01 and 8/05) and lied about receiving any warnings. That's wearing a little thin, even with most Muricans.
What we have here is a symptom of our general lack of a sense of community. I know you'll (Arkadiy) read that as "code", but I genuinely believe it. Look at the disparity of wealth. The poor, for whatever reasons, were left to fend for themselves; the wealthy got out. Is it any wonder that they're angry? But here even the under class doesn't have a united sense of identity. If it did, most of South Central LA, South Chicago, huge sections of Detroit and New York would be on fire right now. I'm amazed more major urban areas aren't glowing. If there was a Left in this country and if it had a leader with the charisma of a Che, youthful Fidel, Lenin, Trotsky or even Bukharin, there'd be a revolution beginning in New Orleans. But the fruits of capitalism (especially technology) have divided us. There's no fixing it now.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
|
Post #223,272
9/6/05 9:02:36 PM
|
selling whiskey to the Indians I suppose
there are compassionate conservatives all over the south taking in people of all races and needs, they are represented, their leaders are not.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #223,281
9/6/05 9:18:04 PM
|
Good question.
May be they were thinking that the Democratic city govt was sufficiently competent to help those who needed help.
Consider me for example. It used to be that when I packed my family in my car, there was no space left except for one more small child. Now that we have two cars, we could take another (small) family. Only problem: I don't know anybody who has no car. Somebody would have to match the people who need a ride out with the car owners. Guess who has all the records? Say, welfare rolls vs. DMV regs on two-car families. But those bastards could not even use their own buses.
------
179. I will not outsource core functions.
--
[link|http://omega.med.yale.edu/~pcy5/misc/overlord2.htm|.]
|
Post #223,289
9/6/05 10:13:26 PM
|
There are lots of very nice cars...
...floating around in downtown NO.
Methinks there is a focus on poor when alot of folks didn't heed intitial warnings.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #223,285
9/6/05 9:47:51 PM
|
But... I DON'T agree that it would
BETTER for the 'haves' to stay - just that they were capable of leaving on their own. More attention and care for the evacuation of the poor should have been paid. Indeed, my point was almost opposite yours.
I DO NOT believe the wealthy would do better under the same conditions. I do not think there is any correllation between moral fortitude and wealth. Either way.
[link|http://www.runningworks.com|
] Imric's Tips for Living
- Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
- Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
- Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
|
Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
|
|
Post #223,085
9/6/05 9:48:31 AM
|
car that runs $1000 insurance minimum $75 per month
1 person single working no skills in new orleans 5.25 per hr thats $210.00 per week. Shithole rent in slimey neighborhood in New Orleans $600 a month. electric gas and food, you want to tell me how you gonna get a $1000 for a car? Steal one, thats the only way.
thanx,
bill
"the reason people don't buy conspiracy theories is that they think conspiracy means everyone is on the same program. Thats not how it works. Everybody has a different program. They just all want the same guy dead. Socrates was a gadfly, but I bet he took time out to screw somebodies wife" Gus Vitelli
Any opinions expressed by me are mine alone, posted from my home computer, on my own time as a free american and do not reflect the opinions of any person or company that I have had professional relations with in the past 49 years. meep
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
|
Post #223,086
9/6/05 9:54:45 AM
|
I'd buy that, except I heard Chertoff in denial.
Yesterday, on NPR's All Things Considered, Robert Siegel didn't get medieval on Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff, in part because the microphones there are specially fabricated to decant all emotion from the voices of their reporters. But Siegel aggressively blocked every escape route that Chertoff took to evade hard questions about "corpses" and "human waste" piling up at the city's convention center, where thousands were stranded without provisions. (Siegel gets tough at about minute four in the audio clip.)
Siegel kept asking Chertoff how long it would take to serve or rescue these people, and a couple times Chertoff answered that the government was doing a great job at the Superdome.
When he cautioned Siegel about the danger of relying on "anecdotal" "rumors" of people in dire straits, Siegel said, no\ufffdthese are facts presented by reporters who have covered war zones. There are 2,000 people at the convention center in need, he said. Having finally broken through the steel plate that is Chertoff's skull, the secretary confessed he hadn't heard those reports\ufffdreports that the television networks were documenting, live, with their cameras. Chertoff promised he'd look into the matter. [link|http://slate.msn.com/id/2125581/device/html40/workarea/3/?nav=ais|http://slate.msn.com...rkarea/3/?nav=ais] I heard this live and it was unbelieveable. NPR has a guy on the ground at the Convention Center and Jackoff Chertoff is telling Siegel "not to believe in rumors". Then, about 1/2 hour after the interview Siegel said that Chertoff's office had called to report that "the secretary has just received a report" confirming what the secretary was denying during Siegel's interview. With everything that happens, this administration reminds me of the Soviet response to Chernobyl. Be it the ignoring of the warnings in August, 2001 or the warnings in August, 2005. The lies, from Rice's "No one could have imagined that people would use airplanes as missles" up to and including Dub's own, "No one could have imagined the levies breaking." These guys are flat-out the most incompetent leaders in the world today who have time and time again shown a proclivity for lying that would make any Bolshevik blush. bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
|
Post #223,102
9/6/05 11:18:47 AM
|
They're not incompetent
These guys are flat-out the most incompetent leaders in the world today who have time and time again shown a proclivity for lying that would make any Bolshevik blush. You persist is assuming they have any interest in "leadership". You keep forgetting one all important fact. The Bushies don't do government. The do politics. In that arena, they are very competent. Until the lack of actual ethics turns around and bites them in the ass. Every single decision and action they do is controlled by how it works politically. No thought is given to good government. -----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
|
Post #223,263
9/6/05 8:47:08 PM
|
There may be quite more to these absurd choices than that..
When I get a round tuit, I'll post in Reviews my notes on watching a (actually, The First) Conference entitled, "Examining the Religious Of the Far Right". First, that is - without a political / social agenda - but about purely information gathering and presentation. I'll try to find some printed summary, as must exist.
Neither polemic nor yuk-fest nor excoriation, this was about Understanding the nature of the what the SIXTY-THREE MILLION purchasers of the Left Behind novelettes are THINKING and acting upon. Each speaker made efficient use of his/her short alloted time, in an effort to explain the sub-cultire (which we tend to lump together as Fundies, etc. etc.)
When the definitions, aims, goals are sorted out, digested + some idea of the %pop as well as a few indications of %influence in the present Cabal: it can look pretty scary, for any non-members of this Club. Which would be: most people that there are, alive on the planet just now.
In brief: attributing Stupid- stupid decisions to mere sloth, ignorance, ineptness, retardation or even - just Desire-for-Empire would be to miss explanations which offer a more cohesive picture of Patterns since Inauguration.
My 3 Raptures worth
|
Post #223,267
9/6/05 8:51:11 PM
|
That's granting too much, I think.
In brief: attributing Stupid- stupid decisions to mere sloth, ignorance, ineptness, retardation or even - just Desire-for-Empire would be to miss explanations which offer a more cohesive picture of Patterns since Inauguration.
Medieval superstitious religions of fear are indicative of underdeveloped minds, no? What more do we need to know of this ilk than "they are true believers?"
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
|
Post #223,280
9/6/05 9:17:13 PM
|
Quite a Lot more - if you are to counter them.
It's fun to ridicule the ridiculous.
But %some of 63M is no longer deterred by being laughed outta the play (especially when the script is a LITERAL interpretation of Revelations. (And this despite: in the Second Century .. the general understanding was formalized in some Concordat, or whatever these Editing meetings label themselves).
'Rev' was never intended for literal! any more than Psalms and other poetic dreamweavings as are sprinkled throughout this self-contradictory collection of human works + the humans' God-imaginations.
ie Even by their own concepts of the Bible-as-Unix-Handbook -- these-All are Revisionists! (too)
The Fright/Rage aspect is too complex for sound bites, as is the more-subtle thread to the jelloware of the Neoconmen .. I'll save that for the Review thingie.
Aux barricades.
..Sans i-Pod, you idiot!
|
Post #223,290
9/6/05 10:30:58 PM
|
Beg to differ
Many are, shall we say, taken under the wing of a religious faith for the moral touchstone it gives them. Others have other reasons but this is one I have some intimate contact with. My oldest sister had already had a baby by the tiime she was 15, gave it up for adoption, became a groupie for friggin' bar bands in hawaii and was well on her way to being someones pass around toy for the coke he could supply by the time she was 17.
She got saved. I know she uses the phrase in a different way than I do but the end result that matters to me is she is still alive. Her faith in what I consider superstition saved her life. I spent many an evening at her church watching in awed wonder at the speaking in tongues, the laying on of hands and other "spirit filled" bug-nut craziness.
These people are crazy; my sister is still alive. I can condemn them for many things but my sister is still alive.
-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
|
Post #223,353
9/7/05 6:50:46 AM
|
Interesting.
I also personally know of cases similar to your sister's. They exist, to be sure. An interesting thought occured to me as I read your post. Christianity, I think, may be just like computer technology. By that I mean that both have contributed some to the human condition, but both are a net negative on society. YMMV, of course.
bcnu,
Mikem
It would seem, therefore, that the three human impulses embodied in religion are fear, conceit, and hatred. The purpose of religion, one might say, is to give an air of respectibility to these passions. -- Bertrand Russell
|
Post #223,383
9/7/05 10:02:20 AM
|
One might interpret your observations thus:
I spent many an evening at her church watching in awed wonder at the speaking in tongues, the laying on of hands and other "spirit filled" bug-nut craziness.
These people are crazy; my sister is still alive. I can condemn them for many things but my sister is still alive. You sister found a group of bug-nut crazies (great phrase, BTW) that complement her bug-nut craziness. The difference is that the group she found values living over self destructive behavior. You sister is no less whacked than she was when she was snorting coke off the backside of some bass player somewhere. The only difference is the company she now keeps. IMHO, she found a better class of whack jobs; the price of entry was a spiritual-based superstition. Not a bad trade, all things considered. jb4
shrub●bish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
|
Post #223,198
9/6/05 4:38:12 PM
|
I few minor nits...
From what I've seen and come to understand, many of the folks who did not evacuate were handicapped or elderly or both. It also happened a few days before the fixed income folks got their checks :-( To confound the situation, many of these people had been "lucky" many, many times before when told to evacuate (although I believe this was the first time that evacuation was mandatory) and most of the previous hurricanes skirted the city or missed it entirely. Add to this a dose of cajun/creole independence and you have a major recipe for disaster.
I 100% agree with your statements. Having lived in New Orleans, I saw what a political football rebuilding the levees had become. "If we rebuild the levees then there will be no extra-curricular activities, etc." Local officials screwed this one big time through short sightedness and absolute denial.
You can forget what a bunch of crackers and black bigots say that have never been to the city (and even ones that have been there that have a black/white, demo/repo agenda). They are trying to politicize this disaster. There is a racial component to this, there is a socio-economic element to this, but it is actually just a fulfillment of what evey geologist and urban planner had been predicting for the last 70 years. New Orleans politics, plain and simple, doomed this town and it's poor to the current state. FEMA was late, the National Guard was late, but New Orleans/Louisiana politics was a complete no show. Where is the state capitol of Louisiana anyway? Oh yeah, an hour away...
Just a few thoughts,
Danno
|
Post #223,292
9/6/05 10:46:19 PM
|
Huh.
I mean that "huh" more in the sense of what comes out of your mouth after a punch to the stomach than as a questioning grunt. I'd never even considered the historically corrupt local governement's lack of care till you said that. More shame to me.
I still think the Fed was criminally negligent. I just don't think they were alone.
-----------------------------------------
George W. Bush and his PNAC handlers sent the US into Iraq with lies. I find myself rethinking my opposition to the death penalty.
--Donald Dean Richards Jr.
|
Post #223,400
9/7/05 11:20:21 AM
|
A little more lively discussion
can be found here: [link|http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002331.html|http://www.pnionline...hives/002331.html] . It's a whole other microcosm of the types of opinions expressed here, but a slightly more "diverse" group. It might be interesting to scan.
As well, this might be a recent taste of NO politics... [link|http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n24_v48/ai_18971883|http://www.findartic...4_v48/ai_18971883] . This is the same mayor that was crying on TV about the projects...
And one more article sheds some light... [link|http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0902-32.htm|http://www.commondre...ews05/0902-32.htm]
Just trying to make some sense out of tragedy,
Danno
|
