Driver Licencing vs The Right To Travel

Post #194,094

2/11/05 12:54:45 AM

[link|http://land.netonecom.net/tlp/ref/DLbrief.shtml|http://land.netoneco...ref/DLbrief.shtml]

This seems excessively silly to me.

Points:

"The ordinary transportation of the day" was horses, way back when; horses generally do not crash into things with deadly consequences when the rider's attention wanders, and they are, on average, smarter than people[0]. Last time I looked, cars were stupid.
I think that the "motor vehicle/automobile" distinction is sophistry.
What's the difference between a certificate of competency[1] and a driver's licence, anyway? How do you demonstrate that the certificate is actually held by the person claiming to hold it?
Is it just me or is this "evul gubmint! run f'th'hills!" silliness?

[0]May not be strictly true, but it certainly looks that way.
[1]I should point out that I regard most other drivers as deadly idiots in charge of motorised death wagons, hell-bent on destroying me with their astonishing stupidity. Clue for other drivers: If you indicate when leaving a roundabout, I don't have to exercise my psychic powers in order to divine what on earth you're about to do.

Post #194,123

by folkert

2/11/05 8:58:48 AM

Mkay...

For every quote of caselaw evidence they show to support the very thought of what they point out, I can probably bring out 2+ caselaw evidence that object to every point they bring up.

Right to Travel != Driver's License.

Right to Travel is a term that means of conveyance to one location from another, be it Walking, Riding a horse, Driving a car, riding in a car, riding in a bus, riding in an airplane, without those <voice type="1940's Gestapo">Your Papers, give them to me!</voice> people stopping you at any event without cause.

A Driver's License is a certificate you have at least passed some form of testing to estimate/guage you ability to drive a vehicle without reasonably causing undue cost in the licensing procedures, and minimizing the "I didn't know about that" syndrome in regards to Traffic Laws and Regulations.

There in, is the difference.

[0] Yes, I agree, Horses will not go where stupid IDIOT human being will without a second thought. Thereby appearing to be smarter, whereas it just self-preservation kicking in.

[1] I also agree, there are far to many people that should have had a *DRIVING* test before being allowed to get a Driving Permit, which has requirements on length of time and logging of driving with another Licensed Driver built into it. Once the requirements for the Permit is fulfilled, they CAN get a Driver's License. But they still have to pass a rudimentary written test. Unfortunately in the US this requirement for the Permit only applies to 15-20 year old people.

Most people just take a single simple driving test and a simple written test to be able to get a license. Oh, and being able to see, is a good thing, if you wear glasses and cannot pass the sight test without the glasses, you must wear them while driving... I can tell you this, my father-in-law NEEDS to wear glasses to be able to see the traffic lights clearly at anything greater than 10-15 feet from them... of course, he despises glasses and won't wear them.

Needless to say, the US has sub-optimal requirements for obtaining a Driver's License.

No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]

Post #194,576

by jb4

2/14/05 1:37:02 PM

Point [1] well taken, but...

...if you'd just do away with that idiocy you quaintly call a "roundabout", you'd find a similar reduction in need for said psychic powers....

jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating the facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT

Post #194,577

by pwhysall

2/14/05 1:38:07 PM

2/14/05 1:39:49 PM

Idiocy?

Well proven to sustain higher traffic flows than light-driven interchanges.

And on our crowded roads (I'm led to believe we have more cars per mile of road than even the Japanese) traffic flow is where it's at, baby.

Also, how DO you deal with more than 4 roads meeting if not with a roundabout?

I think you're just [link|http://www.swindonweb.com/life/lifemagi0.htm|jealous] :-)

Edited by pwhysall Feb. 14, 2005, 01:39:49 PM EST

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Post #194,582

by folkert

2/14/05 2:24:46 PM

With a damned goofy Traffic light setup... Way it should be!

No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]

Post #194,586

by pwhysall

2/14/05 2:45:07 PM

Gridlocked :-)

Post #194,588

by folkert

2/14/05 2:48:34 PM

Exactly! Why should drivers get there first?

No matter how much Microsoft supporters whine about how Linux and other operating systems have just as many bugs as their operating systems do, the bottom line is that the serious, gut-wrenching problems happen on Windows, not on Linux, not on Mac OS. -- [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1622086,00.asp|source]

Post #194,591

by tuberculosis

2/14/05 2:55:47 PM

Must side with Peter

they are really much better than traffic lights in scenarios with even moderate traffic.

"Whenever you find you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect"   --Mark Twain

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."   --Albert Einstein

"This is still a dangerous world. It's a world of madmen and uncertainty and potential mental losses."   --George W. Bush

Post #194,600

by admin

2/14/05 3:47:26 PM

If everyone knows how to use them.

Around here, a lot of idiots stop while inside the circle to let other cars in. Or, they stop at the entrance when no one is coming.

Other than that, the circles seem to work fine up to a certain traffic density, at which point everything hopelessly snarls. I can only see them working in the US if every light got replaced.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,605

by pwhysall

2/14/05 3:56:05 PM

2/14/05 4:09:53 PM

No way.

You're kidding, right?

They stop on the roundabout (circle)?

/me falls over, fbog, etc.

Traffic on the roundabout has right of way. End of problem. I'm surprised that your driving test doesn't cover roundabouts (circles) at least in theory.

There does come a point where no road system can cope, and congestion is the result.

WARNING: Road Geekiness Ahead.

If you don't have roundabouts (circles), you're very restricted in the types of interchanges you can build when motorways (freeways) meet.

Basically you're limited to the cloverleaf, whirlpool and the 4-layer stack (and the myriad variants thereof), all of which are completely impractical in even vaguely urban settings due to the massive land take that they require. The 4-layer stack in particular, while allowing massive traffic flows, is a really rather substantial engineering feat and is so expensive that there's only 3 in the UK, one where the M4 and M5 meet, and the other two on the M25.

Rant: Roundabouts! Traffic Lights! Make up your mind! Traffic lights moderating the traffic onto a roundabout at peak times is kindasortafairynuff. Putting traffic lights ON the roundabout is just EVIL.

Edited by pwhysall Feb. 14, 2005, 04:09:53 PM EST

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Post #194,608

by admin

2/14/05 4:03:16 PM

Way.

It's enough to ruin a morning. Boom. Dead stop in the circle, cars piling up behind. The best part is the wounded expression the asshat invariably puts on when the horn blowing starts. "What? What? I'm just being nice and letting someone in!"

This has happened to me several times in the past few months.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,610

by pwhysall

2/14/05 4:11:12 PM

Send 'em over here.

They can then feel the love of 30 tonnes of HGV gently pushing them off the roundabout.

Post #194,612

by admin

2/14/05 4:15:30 PM

No lights in/on the circles.

I was referring to replacing all of the intersections with lights with circles.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,616

by Another Scott

2/14/05 4:34:39 PM

Way. Dupont Circle in D.C.

[link|http://www.alaskaroundabouts.com/history.html|Roundabouts]:

"NONCONFORMING" TRAFFIC CIRCLES

The early traffic circles often incorporated one or several problematic operational or design elements that would not be permitted in a modern roundabout. For example:

1. Entering traffic had right-of-way - At higher volumes this locks up the circle
2. Entries were regulated by stop signs or traffic lights - This reduces fluidity and capacity.
3. Entries were tangential to circle - This encourages high entering speeds and reduces the safety benefits.
4. Pedestrians crossed onto the central island - This is unsafe for pedestrians and disruptive for drivers.
5. The through road cut through the circle - Capacity, fluidity, and safety benefits are lost by the need to signalize the central intersection.
6. Circulating traffic was controlled by a traffic signal or stop sign - This decreases the fluidity of circulating traffic and can lock up the circle.
7. Parking was permitted in the circle - This reduces the capacity and safety of the circle by adding friction and conflicts.

Among the more notable nonconforming traffic circles are:

1. Dupont Circle in Washington, D.C. - where entries are regulated by a mixture of traffic lights, stop and yield signs, the circle includes a weaving section, and pedestrians walk onto the central island;

That doesn't cover half of the problem. There are about 3 lanes in the circle, but one is partially blocked by a concrete curb part of the way around. If you don't know exactly where you're going and when to exit, you'll not have any clue by the time you enter the circle. There are several traffic lights in the circle as well.

Driving in D.C. is a nightmare as it is (e.g. there are roads where it is illegal to turn left for about 10 miles, so if you make a wrong turn expect to be delayed at least 30 minutes trying to where you started), but trying to drive through Dupont Circle except at about 0530 on a Sunday morning is an excercise in futility.

It does have the advantage that Connecticut Avenue goes under the circle, so a lot of traffic can avoid it.

Cheers,
Scott.

Post #194,617

by admin

2/14/05 4:39:04 PM

That's a nasty one.

I worked not too far from Dupont Circle. What a nightmare.

I've seen ambulances stuck in that circle before, trying to drive up on the median to get through. Impossible.

Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."

Post #194,620

by SpiceWare

2/14/05 5:02:52 PM

Only 3 - wow

They're everywhere here. Here's some [link|http://www.texasfreeway.com/houston/photos/bw8/bw8.shtml|info & photos] of the stacks for beltway 8 that circles Houston. It doesn't cover the stacks found on the other freeway interchanges.

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #194,621

by pwhysall

2/14/05 5:12:19 PM

Nice!

[link|http://www.texasfreeway.com/houston/photos/bw8/bw8_290.shtml|http://www.texasfree...bw8/bw8_290.shtml] <-- Waddatheymean, "complete disregard for aesthetics"? It's BEAUTIFUL!

Post #194,627

by pwhysall

2/14/05 5:17:39 PM

For something a bit more freeform...

...you can't beat good old [link|http://www.philipjohnston.com/bham/spaghetti.htm|Spaghetti Junction] (Gravelly Hill Interchange).

And [link|http://www.texasfreeway.com/houston/photos/bw8/bw8_i10e.shtml|this] is art, in pre-stressed concrete and steel.

Post #194,722

by Silverlock

2/15/05 9:03:09 AM

We have one of those in Atlanta

[link|http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues01/apr01/images/traffic_spaghetti_junction_jpg.html|Tom Moreland Interchange] AKA Dysfunction junction AKA Spaghetti junction.

-----------------------------------------
"In this world of sin and sorrow there is always something to be thankful for. As for me, I rejoice that I am not a Republican."
-- H. L. Mencken

Post #194,634

by ben_tilly

2/14/05 5:39:26 PM

Maybe you'd prefer one of these?

[link|http://members.cox.net/mkpl/interchange/interchange.html|http://members.cox.n.../interchange.html]

Gives aerial shots of a good number in the LA area.

I've driven through most of them.

Cheers,
Ben

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,640

by pwhysall

2/14/05 5:54:35 PM

Ooh, pretty.

The one on I710 SB is a textbook example of a 4-layer stack. Gorgeous!

Post #194,643

by ben_tilly

2/14/05 6:02:29 PM

Fonts and interchanges, you find beauty in the oddest places

I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)

Post #194,905

by Ashton

2/16/05 1:35:37 AM

'beauty in the oddest places' - a Jesus story (!)

It's alleged (maybe a Sufi story) that..

JC was walking down a road with some associates and he spotted a dead dog along the side.
Others averted their eyes. JC (~~, as always):

No, Look! See the beautiful teeth in this animal!!

Post #194,909

by pwhysall

2/16/05 2:06:11 AM

Pshaw

The dead dog in modern Westernia is not the glory that is the motorway interchange, but the endless miles of crappy low-rise sprawl that seems to surround every city, from Prague to Peterborough to Pittsburgh.

Post #194,923

by imric

2/16/05 7:03:10 AM

Actually

Pittsburgh is surrounded more by hills and farms -

But being from New Jersey (which more than makes up for Pittsburgh in this regard :-( ) your point is very well taken.

[link|http://forfree.sytes.net|

]

Imric's Tips for Living

Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.

Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.

Post #194,731

by mmoffitt

2/15/05 10:03:33 AM

Thanks for reminding me why I left CA.

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #194,753

by pwhysall

2/15/05 11:02:54 AM

What?! There are BETTER ONES elsewhere? Show me!

Post #195,131

by mmoffitt

2/17/05 9:40:13 AM

I gothcher "better" right cheer.

[link|http://www.terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?T=1&S=11&Z=16&X=1612&Y=11481&W=1|http://www.terraserv...=1612&Y=11481&W=1]

bcnu,
Mikem

Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer.
God Bless America.

Post #195,133

by Another Scott

2/17/05 9:45:04 AM

When the revolution comes, the pilots will be first ... ;-)

Post #194,636

by SpiceWare

2/14/05 5:44:52 PM

newer ones are more "artistic"

I've been documenting some of them in my [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass] gallery, such as [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/SanAntonio/dcp_0241|this new ramp] at one of the stacks in San Antonio. I need to get back down to Corpus Christi, one new section has sea animals in all the support columns, similiar to this [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/CorpusChristi/dcp_0066|retaining wall] in Portland(just north of Corpus).

Note - you can click on my photos for an even bigger image

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #195,999

by SpiceWare

2/22/05 4:32:03 PM

Other nice photos

[link|http://www.houstonfreeways.com/aerial_challenge_index.aspx|http://www.houstonfr...llenge_index.aspx]

They definitely dispel the notion some people have of Texas being a desert :-)

Darrell Spice, Jr.                      [link|http://spiceware.org/gallery/ArtisticOverpass|Artistic Overpass]\n[link|http://www.spiceware.org/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

Post #194,886

by static

2/15/05 10:54:51 PM

When roundabouts don't work.

They are practically everywhere in Sydney. I remember them coming in in a big way a few decades ago.

The vast majority of them are little tiny things; small enough that busses go over them and people treat them as a variant of stop-sign intersections. One of the largest in Sydney, the five-ways at Miranda, was replaced with a traffic-light intersection a few years ago. The reason? Accident reduction.

But there are places where they are counter-productive. That's where two legs have much more traffic than the other two. Near where my parents live, we had an intersection of a side-street and a main road moderated by a roundabout. It was nasty, almost worse than the simple T-intersection beforehand. Those In Charge wouldn't believe a set of traffic lights was what was needed. The roundabout never got finished before they ripped it out and put in lights!

Oh, if you're ever driving in Melbourne, watch out for roundabouts where the tram lines go through the middle. Traffic on the roundabout has to give way to the trams, of course.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed

Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

Post #194,908

by pwhysall

2/16/05 2:03:37 AM

Teehee

too much Castlemaine XXXX at the road planning meetings, methinks.

The miniroundabout (for that is what you describe) is a pointless monstrosity, unwanted and unloved.

Every time you see a roundabout replaced with lights, prepare for queues.

Post #196,281

by static

2/25/05 1:17:24 AM

Just be careful of exporting your experience.

The roundabout disaster I described was because of local MPs and planners who couldn't believe the local residents - who'd lived there years - knew what they wanted. Traffic lights made queues, but they made them predictable. When it was a roundabout, the queues were longer.

Wade.

Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed

Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please

-- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne.

Post #194,625

by jb4

2/14/05 5:14:51 PM

Jealous? Hardly. I just like my car to retain its integrity

...or, at least, its bumpers....

Post #194,681

by daemon

2/14/05 8:51:54 PM

why the hell should I signal when leaving a roundabout?

I am either in front of you or I am no longer in front of you. Sheesh. I like roundabouts, Especially if you get your junker in there and go round and round at speed, 1/16 mile track wheeee!!! like I told the clearwater cops there is no rule you have to leave the roundabout after one circle.
regards,
daemon

I love her dearly, far beyond any creature I've ever known, and I can prove it, for never once in almost seventy years of married life have I taken her by the throat. Mind you, it's been a near thing once or twice.
George Macdonald Frasier
Clearwater highschool marching band [link|http://www.chstornadoband.org/|http://www.chstornadoband.org/]

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