Re: Now there's a wrong-headed ... lateral arabesque?

Post #189,900 by Ashton 1/12/05 4:19:52 AM Reply	Re: Now there's a wrong-headed ... lateral arabesque? Maybe we need not decide what IS is. Look, suppose you needed a Doctor to perform a bleeding edge new sort of operation, one so new that there are no nice survival stats on outcomes; there's dissension from the old guard, etc. You find one who says he can help. You investigate a little; find that he's a big fan of Mary Shelley, has collected very many body parts in his lab (well preserved by latest tricks). He really Wants the job. Of course, if his heart isn't much in Your aims; if it doesn't work out too well for you -- there's this other project, the only one he's Really Interested in. Would you want this Doctor in charge of your life (expectancy)? Of course too, all realize that there is absolutely no way to expect some 'law' change to prevent a religio-loony and lots of other kinds - from say, achieving let's even say: control over the Bagman's codes. Such as we are, and just now, before any nukes actually fly. (Most weren't born when the last ones flew/dropped) So this discussion was moot before phase II. My 3 Kopeks
Post #189,929 by ben_tilly 1/12/05 12:29:42 PM Reply	The point you may have missed I wouldn't want that doctor, and I'm not voting for Bush either. But look at your closing thought: Of course too, all realize that there is absolutely no way to expect some 'law' change to prevent a religio-loony and lots of other kinds - from say, achieving let's even say: control over the Bagman's codes. I only wish that was true. This argument is over the fact that Mike apparently does seem to think that it is reasonable and desirable to make a law change to prevent religio-loonies from having access to political power. And doesn't understand why many of us (myself included) see this as advocating something that would cause irreparable harm to the principle of American democracy. I'd also like to wave a magic wand and have the problem go away. But banning fundamentalist Christians from political office isn't the way to do it. What would happen if there was such a ban? Well quite simply, the principle of having a democracy that everyone is free to participate in would be gone. The principle that the government will not discriminate on the basis of faith would be gone. And the banned religious people would just lie about their beliefs and continue to participate anyways unless we went to more draconian measures (which are an even more obvious violation of the ideals that we'd like to believe that we have). I think you recognize this, after all you've said that there's absolutely no way to expect this. Mike obviously doesn't, and when he fails to understand something this basic, there are literally no grounds for communication. Cheers, Ben I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
Post #189,937 by mmoffitt 1/12/05 1:14:00 PM Reply	I understand your point. But it wasn't ever my point. I raised the question - is democracy a good idea when the majority of people who vote are bent on (or at least looking forward to) the destruction of life on the planet? Clearly, I think, from the viewpoint of everyone living outside said environment - and the minority of rational minds within that environment even, democracy is not a good idea, especially when said environment has the tools to actually end life on the planet. The non-existent, idealized version of American Democracy you are so enamored of requires an educated, tolerant people in order to produce enlightened leadership. What passes for democracy in this country has clearly not yielded enlightened leadership. So where is the problem? I'd argue that the idealized version of American Democracy you speak of will never come to exist because the voting majority of the American People will never be educated or tolerant. Further, to my way of thinking, the rise of fundamentalist Christianity and its influence over our governance guarantees that the voting majority here will forever remain uneducated, egotistical, intolerant and yes, dangerous. bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #189,959 by Arkadiy 1/12/05 4:59:44 PM Reply	Mike, listen to yourself. I once conceded an argument when I relized I was about to defend the internment of Japanese Americans during WW-2. I think you're way past the point where it's better to re-read your posts and re-consider your premises. -- - I was involuntarily self-promoted into management. [link\|http://kerneltrap.org/node/4484\|Richard Stallman]
Post #189,980 by mmoffitt 1/12/05 9:03:04 PM Reply	Sorry. I re-read everything I wrote and stand by it. I'm also not going to post here anymore in deference to right-shift issues, which I, myself, am beginning to have trouble with. Ashton's post in the other forum is a nice summary (and I think perhaps less inflamatory) of what I intended to posit. ;0) bcnu, Mikem Eine Leute. Eine Welt. Ein F\ufffdhrer. (Just trying to be accepted in the New America)
Post #189,970 by Ashton 1/12/05 6:45:12 PM Reply	Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind (new thread) Created as new thread #189969 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=189969\|Moving on ---> to metaphysics and The non-Spotless Mind] The common condition of things that did not happen is that you cannot disprove them. Anon. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both. - James Madison As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. H.L. Mencken

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