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New Better.
And I'm inclined to agree with you.

Concerning to me are the states that voted against civil union as well because it will make the effort of legisltation more difficult.

Of major concern, the right to inherit, the visitation rights, the financial rights all would pass with majority in my opinion. Its when they are all tied together and associcated with "marriage" that you get that reactionary style vote...becasue then you get the mental pictures of folks on the steps in the "religious style" ceremonies.

Its that level of "flaunting", if you will...that many people have a problem with. Hell, alot of Americans have problems with public displays of >hetero< affection, ferchrissakes.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New That sentence is too long
Hell, alot of Americans have problems with public displays of >hetero< affection, ferchrissakes.

That is better written as, Hell, alot of Americans have problems.

HTH,
Ben
I have come to believe that idealism without discipline is a quick road to disaster, while discipline without idealism is pointless. -- Aaron Ward (my brother)
New Thats a universal
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition

[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
New Marriage should be meaningless then...
... in the legal sense, anyway.

If you want a religious marriage, fine. But it will bestow no legal rights upon you. For gay and hetero alike, you'll be forced to have a "civil union" if you want all the rights conferred therein.

When a hetero couple says they're married, "Yeah, so, are you legally bound?"

thanks
mx.
"I'm man enough to tell you that I can't put my finger on
exactly what my philosophy is now, but I'm flexible."
-- Malcolm X
New This, I agree with.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.


Nothing is as simple as it seems in the beginning,
As hopeless as it seems in the middle,
Or as finished as it seems in the end.
 
 
New Shrug...they'll lose in the end anyway.
The rights aspects - visitation, inherit and financial can all be handled with simple (standard) contracts. Some Constitutional issues, confidentiality between husband and wife, aren't easy to fix but don't come up that often.

What will happen (what I've called for anyway) is to change the approach of Gays and Lesbians. Forget aiming merely for marriage. Aim instead to create a convenant (with a different name) that is 'higher' than marriage - harder to enter into and harder to break out of. (Example: upon 'divorce' all mutually owned funds are given to charity rather than divided amount the participants).

Give it 5 years. With divorce rates as they are, anyone who wants to prove that they are 'committed' to each other will slowly drift to this new convenant: homosexual or hetrosexual.

New Re: Shrug...they'll lose in the end anyway.
What will happen (what I've called for anyway) is to change the approach of Gays and Lesbians. Forget aiming merely for marriage. Aim instead to create a convenant (with a different name) that is 'higher' than marriage - harder to enter into and harder to break out of. (Example: upon 'divorce' all mutually owned funds are given to charity rather than divided amount the participants).
Using your given example, what exactly are the benefits to this "higher" institution? And how would it benefit me, and why would I choose it? Speaking as a divorced person, being required to forfeit all of my "mutually owned funds" (including the house which I now solely inhabit) upon divorce doesn't sound palatable.
Give it 5 years. With divorce rates as they are, anyone who wants to prove that they are 'committed' to each other will slowly drift to this new convenant: homosexual or hetrosexual.
I'm sorry, but I don't necessarily see that.

I have a friend who has been with the same woman for 25 years. They've been married for 19. 3 kids together. And she's just revealed that it's been a "marriage of convenience" for her. Oh, and that it's no longer convenient. So he should be forced to give away everything he's worked for over the last quarter-century? How will that help his kids, and keep them off the streets of South-Side Chicago?
-YendorMike

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- Benjamin Franklin, 1759 Historical Review of Pennsylvania
New Sorry for the delay....
I've been very busy as of late...

Using your given example, what exactly are the benefits to this "higher" institution? And how would it benefit me, and why would I choose it? Speaking as a divorced person, being required to forfeit all of my "mutually owned funds" (including the house which I now solely inhabit) upon divorce doesn't sound palatable.


You're arguing a logical approach to a convenant - in effect arguing what are the benefits to be gained versus the risks being taken. (That's a good thing.)

Marriage is often entered into without this planning. In fact, there is the argument that marriage is entered into lightly because divorce is made 'simple'. (It's not simple, it never is, but that argument is sometimes made.)

The benefit would be threefold : first the use of the name of the covenant (being able to claim that you are in said covenant) and the (hopefully) increased awareness of the significance of the convenant and (again hopefully) the decrease in divorces (or breaking of the covenant) as more people would be aware of what they are getting into and the cost of getting out of it.


I have a friend who has been with the same woman for 25 years. They've been married for 19. 3 kids together. And she's just revealed that it's been a "marriage of convenience" for her. Oh, and that it's no longer convenient. So he should be forced to give away everything he's worked for over the last quarter-century? How will that help his kids, and keep them off the streets of South-Side Chicago?


Short answer, it won't. (I didn't claim it was perfect).

But, it would also prevent her from getting anything. It may give pause before the next couple thinks of "tying the knot."

The financials that I suggested were just one possibility. Another might dictate counseling for both parties before entering the convenant. (However, I have no statistics that suggest that would make the arrangement more palatable to the parties in 25 years.)

In short, I have no magic pill that will keep people together. Personally, I believe it morally wrong to try to keep people together when they (actually even if just one of them) don't want to be together. This will not prevent divorce.

My sole argument for Gays and Lesbians to take the higher moral ground, and in doing so, could surplant both criticism for their convenants and may even attact others to them.
     Banning Gay Marriage - (tuberculosis) - (40)
         Want to clarify that? - (bepatient) - (39)
             That's BS, and you know it - (ben_tilly) - (16)
                 Man. - (bepatient) - (15)
                     Bill accuses others of condescention, divisivness - (Silverlock) - (3)
                         Nope. - (bepatient)
                         Bill provides valuable counterpoint - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                             Sometimes that's on purpose. - (bepatient)
                     Where to begin? - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                         Yes and no. - (bepatient) - (9)
                             Can I play? - (drewk) - (2)
                                 "Code words" - (bepatient) - (1)
                                     Yup, Brandioch would nail you at the outset.. stead o' in - (Ashton)
                             We part company at the third sentence - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                                 And I think you overestimate... - (bepatient) - (4)
                                     And here's my belief - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                                         To what end? - (bepatient) - (2)
                                             Benefits and obligations go hand in hand - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                 We both agree... - (bepatient)
             OK - (tuberculosis) - (21)
                 Better. - (bepatient) - (7)
                     That sentence is too long - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                         Thats a universal -NT - (bepatient)
                     Marriage should be meaningless then... - (xtensive) - (1)
                         This, I agree with. -NT - (imric)
                     Shrug...they'll lose in the end anyway. - (Simon_Jester) - (2)
                         Re: Shrug...they'll lose in the end anyway. - (Yendor) - (1)
                             Sorry for the delay.... - (Simon_Jester)
                 I would vote against that - (daemon) - (12)
                     Why should I care that *you* were married in a courthouse? -NT - (drewk) - (1)
                         I wasnt, I dont beleive in state marriages for anyone, -NT - (daemon)
                     We've been down this road before - (ben_tilly) - (9)
                         married by Ashton Brown would suffice - (daemon) - (8)
                             Speaking of Ashton... (new thread) - (Nightowl)
                             more I think about it the more - (daemon) - (5)
                                 In which case... - (ben_tilly) - (4)
                                     already said that a couple of posts up :-) -NT - (daemon)
                                     Re: In which case... - (CraigB) - (2)
                                         It could always be made more complicated. - (Another Scott) - (1)
                                             This fine Human suggestion is____entirely too___*sane* - (Ashton)
                             As a Reverend in the Universal Life Church - (Ashton)

Real live veggie burgers -- they cook 'em 'til they're pink.
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