clinton !=surplus

Post #161,181 by boxley 6/23/04 9:32:15 AM Reply	clinton !=surplus show me in any year that the taxes raised exceeded the outlay of both government and social security payments. thanx, bill Anchorage AK: House for sale 3 bed 1 bath 1440 sq feet huge lot near Cheney Lake 175K FSBO 813.273.3518 I wondered what Darwinian moment had to effect itself before we devolved from children flying paper flags in the sky to half formed creatures thundering in a wall of horns down the road to Roncevaux. James Lee Burke questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #161,250 by mmoffitt 6/23/04 4:27:02 PM Reply	SS is off budget. HTH. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #161,265 by ben_tilly 6/23/04 5:07:50 PM Reply	It shouldn't be Then again social security contributions should be called a tax, and shouldn't cap out at any limit. Though I must admit that it is a nice feeling to see a paycheck swell when you do cross said cap. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,291 by inthane-chan 6/23/04 6:06:14 PM Reply	Um, can I hate you now?
Post #161,319 by ben_tilly 6/23/04 8:59:19 PM Reply	No Because I plead the fifth on whether I have ever had that nice feeling that I alluded to. :-P Also because I live places with a much higher cost of living. :-( Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,350 by inthane-chan 6/23/04 11:15:51 PM Reply	Let me see... 1. Lives within walking distance of work. 2. Most likely makes more than my wife and I combined. 3. Complains about housing prices - Hey, I'd be lucky to find a pile of shit for under $200k in Seattle right now. 4. Well respected within his field. If I was a hater, I'd be hatin' the playa right now... ;) Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #161,351 by admin 6/23/04 11:18:22 PM Reply	<whine>Why ya gotta be-ah playa hatah, Yoda?</whine> Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #161,353 by ben_tilly 6/23/04 11:50:09 PM Reply	You are complaining about Seattle housing prices? A decent 2 bdrm condo near here runs over $400,000. Entry level houses in Santa Monica are close to a million. I could probably get a dump of a house for $600,000. In a bad neighbourhood. With an hour commute. Plus remember that I'm paying for one medical school education. And had to live in NYC for too many years, in a place that you'd consider a good sized closet. But if you do want to hate, I should point out that I'm far from the highest paid person at IWETHEY. I know several who make more than I do, and have far lower costs of living. I'll let you guess who... Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,354 by inthane-chan 6/23/04 11:58:03 PM Reply	Hey, no sweat. Hell, there's only two people here that I genuinely have a grudge with, and you're nowhere near being either of them. Just had to tweak ya a bit... ('Sides, do you know what a masters degree in Psychology at a private university costs? And what it pays back? Let's just say there's a significant disconnect... :P) Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #161,373 by ben_tilly 6/24/04 1:44:27 AM Reply	Enlighten me ('Sides, do you know what a masters degree in Psychology at a private university costs? And what it pays back? Let's just say there's a significant disconnect... :P) No. But I know that an MD costs about $200,000. Before you add in opportunity costs, several years of amazing stress, and the general suckitude that was Manhattan. The return that I've seen so far was an entry level job for 1 year. With hours that made the pay come in below minimum wage. Someday it should pay, sure. Someday hasn't come yet. The bills sure have though... If I'm lucky, I might start seeing an actual return on that investment in 4-5 years. At which point people like Drew will hate me because they see me getting a "free ride" for my choices. Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,375 by inthane-chan 6/24/04 1:56:35 AM Reply	Nope, not that rich. :P All told, between the two of us, we're looking at ~$100k in student loans. I've probably peaked my lifetime earning value, at around $50k/year, unless I make the jump to management or I somehow transform into a shithot programmer. Odds of that are fairly minimal. Susan is making top of her field right now - about $28k/year. Guess who's degree cost much more? Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #161,377 by ben_tilly 6/24/04 2:11:39 AM 6/24/04 2:05:13 PM Reply	It could be worse She could have a degree in childhood development. Appropriate for a childcare worker. People in that job love it, but the pay, well, as a society we don't realize that there is more to the job than just babysitting... Cheers, Ben PS You haven't peaked your lifetime earning potential yet. Take a look at [link\|http://www.infoworld.com/article/04/06/11/24FEcompsurv_1.html?s=feature\|http://www.infoworld..._1.html?s=feature] and see some of the options for moving up. Also if you did the same job in this city, you'd get paid more. (Life would cost more as well - so it probably isn't a win.) As for Susan, while social services tops out, her skills could also segue into alternate careers. For instance a school counselor probably makes somewhat more. To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court] Edited by ben_tilly June 24, 2004, 02:05:13 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #161,394 by Another Scott 6/24/04 8:08:33 AM Reply	Re: Drew. You do remember the forum you're in, right? ;-)
Post #161,515 by mmoffitt 6/24/04 5:18:48 PM Reply	Fuurrrrrrrrr Fuck's sake. If I'm lucky, I might start seeing an actual return on that investment in 4-5 years. With the "average" physician's salary being at or near $200,000/year, I doubt you'll have to be too "lucky" to get many dozens of times back what you spend on a Memorization Doctorate. :-p bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #161,537 by ben_tilly 6/24/04 5:57:27 PM Reply	Wrong The average doctor's salary is about $100,000. Thanks for playing, you can find the exit for yourself. There is considerable variability, and significant differences between specialties. Some are much higher than that. Some are somewhat less. Most of the highly paid specialties also have insane hours. $300,000/year in return for a 100 hour work week is a bargain of at best mixed benefit. If you don't love your job, there ain't no way in hell that that's worth it. Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,638 by mmoffitt 6/25/04 2:52:09 PM Reply	Pull that number out of your ass did you? It's WAY off, even in 2002. [link\|http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary2.html\|http://www.physician...cian/salary2.html] bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #161,642 by boxley 6/25/04 3:02:37 PM Reply	rather like the IT salary survey, pulled from /dev/ass Anchorage AK: House for sale 3 bed 1 bath 1440 sq feet huge lot near Cheney Lake 175K FSBO 813.273.3518 I wondered what Darwinian moment had to effect itself before we devolved from children flying paper flags in the sky to half formed creatures thundering in a wall of horns down the road to Roncevaux. James Lee Burke questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #161,643 by ben_tilly 6/25/04 3:14:16 PM Reply	Those don't look like the ones that my wife quotes Their [link\|http://www.physicianssearch.com/physician/salary1.html\|first year salary] looks far closer to what she has been quoting at me. In any case, for all that you might despise it, it is not an easy road. She's been on it for 6 years, and has made less than I did in my first year of work. Not to mention the debt load. Furthermore unless something drastic happens to me, she won't get to the quoted "first year" for another 5 or so years. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,645 by drewk 6/25/04 3:36:51 PM Reply	Question, do these numbers sound reasonable? Take the lowest number on there, $90k. Assume 1/2 that for take-home. That would mean a doctor in their first year takes home $45k. Now take what a bookkeeper makes: [link\|http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/salary/sb_naverage.htm\|28,460]. Assume 2/3 for take-home. (Unlikely to do that well, but for the sake of argument.) That means take home of ~$19k. If the first-year doctor self-imposed the same standard of living as the office clerk, they'd have $26k/year left over to service debt. Now I'm not saying doctors don't work hard, or that they don't deserve to be compensated. But whenever I see the staff parking lot at a hospital I see a lot of expensive toys. I suspect the reason many doctors are still paying for so many years is that the school loans are at a lower rate than inflation. I know my school loans were. In that situation it's smart to pay the minimum. Or medical school financing could be completely unlike undergraduate funancing and I don't know WTF I'm talking about. === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #161,654 by ben_tilly 6/25/04 5:25:01 PM Reply	They are missing something basic When a doctor walks out of medical school, said doctor walks into a residency. Residents make $35-$40K/year. But have to pay servicing on the loans. The loans are typically a mix of different kinds, ranging from government loans like the ones you remember (though these days the interest rate is above inflation) to private loans at a fairly stiff interest rate. Mostly of 5-10 year terms. During residency, paying back really is difficult. This is the period that doctors tend to complain about. The point at which debt comes due but you don't actually make very much. This is where my wife is, with a hiccoup because she didn't get into the residency that she wanted. At about this time, students get many offers to "consolidate" their debts. Consolidation turns a series of 5-10 year loans into a 20 year loan with a corresponding lowering of monthly payments. The consolidated loan comes at a distinct cost - while you pay less per month, long-term you pay a lot more. It isn't worth it if you can avoid it. (We're avoiding it.) Now some more facts to consider. The average doctor makes the equivalent of 2 professional incomes. True. The average doctor also works the equivalent of 2 careers. Doctors also require a longer professional education than any other non-academic career that I know of. Furthermore doctors start making money significantly later in life than other professionals, so they have less time to save for retirement, and less time to take advantage of compound interest. In financial advice books that I've read, doctors tend to get singled out as a group that isn't properly prepared financially. (An additional problem - various kinds of hucksters know that doctors make a lot and are financially naive. Opportunities abound for doctors to blow money...) So, sure. Lots of people at the staff parking lot in a hospital have a lot of toys. Their finances are often not in nearly as good of shape as the toys suggest. Their work hours tend to be insane. And if you know a few, you'd find that they are telling their kids to go into law and business rather than medicine. Is doctor more lucrative than being a bookkeeper? Sure. Of course anyone capable enough to be a doctor has more lucrative alternatives than bookkeeping. Most of the careers on your list were better than bookkeeping, and the non-executive ones didn't include anything requiring a professional degree. Consider as an alternative something like law school (much easier to get into than medical school). It takes 3 years to get the degree, there is no residency training, the hours are better, and after 2 years your [link\|http://www.nvbar.org/News_and_other_information/2002_comp_survey.htm\|average salary] is $70K, with plenty of opportunities for advancement. A few years down the road, who is ahead? Some day, the doctor. But it takes more years than you might think to get there. And the years lost are the years when most of us would like to get a home, have a family, and still have our health. Are doctors overpaid? Depends how you think about it. Sure, their lives are much better than the average person's in the end. But their eventual compensation is in line with what you could expect from other professions with difficult entry requirements. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,659 by boxley 6/25/04 5:44:00 PM Reply	A union Lineman working a doctors hours would equal that doctors salary. Licensed electrician also. Ben would know better than I but rounds at the hospital are 6:30 to 9am, office visits till 5 evening rounds till 7. Just rounds on weekends, the sick dont take a day off. thanx, bill Anchorage AK: House for sale 3 bed 1 bath 1440 sq feet huge lot near Cheney Lake 175K FSBO 813.273.3518 I wondered what Darwinian moment had to effect itself before we devolved from children flying paper flags in the sky to half formed creatures thundering in a wall of horns down the road to Roncevaux. James Lee Burke questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #161,689 by mmoffitt 6/25/04 10:03:43 PM Reply	Depends on the specialty. Radiologists, Opthamologists, Psychiatrists, Dermatologists, etc. have bankers hours and still make > 200K/year. There are a lot of cards a clinician can play, but 'begging poor' sure as fuck ain't one of 'em. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #161,646 by deSitter 6/25/04 3:37:34 PM Reply	Re: Those don't look like the ones that my wife quotes A complete shakeup of the medical establishment is inevitable. Too many people have no coverage of any kind for the current system to survive. For example, I have a ticking gene-bomb that will kill me with near 100% certainty some day, and no coverage of any kind. -drl
Post #161,656 by ben_tilly 6/25/04 5:29:16 PM Reply	That I'll agree with The US system is insane, and the incentives make the inevitable path of the system increasingly headed on a collision course with what is plausible. Of course the same is true for many things in our society, ranging from the portion of the GNP consumed by government to university tuition. There is no certainty in life. Except that you'll die someday. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,648 by mmoffitt 6/25/04 3:47:00 PM Reply	Course not, You don't expect an MD to say physicians are ... overpaid, do you? Please. Ooh, ooh, but lookie, lookie, in our first year out of school we only make four times as much as the average private sector employed worker. PLEASE. Even given that, in three years they're making 180K+ and it goes on up from there. So, they don't sleep much for 6 years. Doesn't sound like a lot to ask for getting paid a couple million in their "first ten working years". bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #161,655 by ben_tilly 6/25/04 5:27:03 PM Reply	An exercise for you Look up what a residency is, and the residency requirements for each of those careers. Then take back your "first year out of school" BS. If you really think that doctors lives are so cushy, why don't you become one? Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,692 by mmoffitt 6/25/04 10:16:41 PM Reply	I worked in hospitals for six years. Seen my share of prima dona pricks (aka Residents). Then for a Health Plan for six more - where I really began to understand the scale of clinician greed. My wife has been an R.N. for twenty years. I know what the fuck a resident is. And I know that as a medical school student you go to 2 years grad school, get 2 years ojt as an intern, then pick a specialty that ranges from two to six years of residency. And they put in a lot of hours as paid residents - and they take call, something the little shits bitch about constantly. Presumeably because they finished medical school and expect to become deities w/out the trouble of completing residency. And at the end of their residencies, they get the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I'm too old now to go to medical school. And I probably don't have the rote memorization skills to do it anyway. Also, I'm too fucking inquisitive (like, I wouldn't feel comfortable prescribing whatever the fucking PDR says to give a patient with symptoms x, y and z without knowing exactly how the fucking drug I'm prescribing works - and damned few - if any - clinicians can tell you that). Plus, I'd be excluded anyway on account of my ancestry. You see, my parents were married when I was born and the AMA claims they can't break precedent by allowing some one with my background into medical school. ;-p (No offense to Mrs. Tilly. I have about a half dozen very close friends who are clinicians and their general view of the vast majority of their peers differs only imperceptably from mine). bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #161,355 by drewk 6/23/04 11:58:14 PM Reply	How about if I hate you because you walk to work? And it's probably warm engough to do it year-round? And rains, what, three times a year? === Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Post #161,356 by inthane-chan 6/23/04 11:59:13 PM Reply	Oh, I won't hate him for that last one. I LOVE the rain. Sadly, it seems to be down for the Seattle area these days - but we're getting more tornados. Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #161,358 by admin 6/24/04 12:02:06 AM Reply	Wow, tornadoes AND earthquakes? Maybe God really does hate Microsoft... Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #161,360 by inthane-chan 6/24/04 12:11:05 AM Reply	We've had 6-8 so far this year that I know of. Little tiny ones, nothing like the trailer park eaters out in the midwest. Still, that's about 5-7 more than we usually get a year... In fact, I think this is the most we've ever had. Tired of lying in the sunshine staying home to watch the rain. You are young and life is long and there is time to kill today. And then one day you find ten years have got behind you. No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
Post #161,363 by admin 6/24/04 12:21:51 AM Reply	More than we've had. Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #161,364 by FuManChu 6/24/04 12:25:22 AM Reply	...& locusts & E-to-W lightning storms &meteorites &...
Post #161,370 by ben_tilly 6/24/04 1:35:30 AM Reply	You can hate yourself for that Because you're envying me for choices that you're free to make for yourself. If you don't like the consequences of your choices, then choose differently! It ain't rocket science - your decisions affect what you get. First of all what is, "warm enough to do it year round" supposed to mean? Somehow I walked year round in NYC. It didn't matter whether it was 15 or high 90's out, sun, rain or snow. I even walked home through the tail end of a hurricane once! About 45 min per day of whatever was out there. (OK, I admit that when it was easy to catch a cab in the morning I cabbed that direction. But when it wasn't, I would just walk the thing. There were never cabs on the way back.) Ditto when I lived in NH. 20 below sucks, lemme tell you. But I still went out in it. Don't bother bitching about how you're too much of a wimp to walk in whatever climate you're in. Oh, but perhaps you envy me the fact that I live within walking distance of work. Well I'll tell you how I got that. I got a job. Then I moved close to it. I pay a premium - a small 1 br costs me nearly $1500/month. That's worth it to me. If a similar choice isn't worthwhile for you, that's your choice. Don't complain. I live in a city where 1 hour commutes are standard. I can walk to work. I could have a reasonable amount of space, but then I'd have the commute. I can avoid the commute, but I have to pay for it. I made my decision, and I don't complain about it. Why do you whimper about your choices? Of course you could envy me the fact that NOW I'm in California. But how is it my fault that you can't figure out how to get the climate you want? Want California climate? Then move here! It ain't rocket science. Plenty of idiots figure that out, why can't you? Any further complaints will be dismissed as the pointless whines that they obviously are are. :-P Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,498 by broomberg 6/24/04 4:37:45 PM Reply	Was about 0 degrees the week I met you I was wearing sockless sandals, trying to keep up with you. You walk to fast.
Post #161,499 by ben_tilly 6/24/04 4:47:17 PM Reply	What a coincidence I just sat down after a brief chat with the COO where I'd described how this guy I knew in Philly kept people out of his space. And I'd mentioned that you were a sellout - you no longer wore sandals all of the time. Then I get back here and find you mentioning the same incident! As for walking too fast - you walk too slowly. When you get around on foot as much as I do, you learn how to do it better. :-P Also FYI, there are two too many spellings for to. I would have mentioned this first, but spelling flames are lame, and lame is something that I'm not. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #161,517 by mmoffitt 6/24/04 5:20:27 PM Reply	No argument. No cap. Benefits subject to needs analysis. bcnu, Mikem If you can read this, you are not the President.
Post #161,606 by Arkadiy 6/25/04 10:58:00 AM Reply	Needs Analysis Done by our beloved Government. Here is "needs analysis" for you: Recently Medicaid refused to pay for 2 100 mg Toprol tablets my Mother takes daily. The reason? "Excceded recommended dosage of 200 mg per day". Huh? 2 time 100 is 200. Well, some Govt puke decided that taking it twice a day is a luxury, not a need. Never mind that she feels that she can't get up in the morning when she takes only one pill per day. Never mind that the regiment she is on has been developed after a year of trial and error suffering and worked for a few years flawlessly. There is no need for it, you see. The Medicaid flunky says so. -- "...was poorly, lugubrious and inebriated." -- Patrick O'Brian, "Master and Commander"
Post #161,702 by broomberg 6/26/04 12:17:55 AM Reply	So get 1 and break it in 1/2
Post #161,713 by Arkadiy 6/26/04 6:41:15 AM Reply	Only possible with older pills The new ones are capsulas filled with powder. And, it's not as precise. For now, though, it is the solution. Which is completely besides the point, anyway. -- "...was poorly, lugubrious and inebriated." -- Patrick O'Brian, "Master and Commander"
Post #161,275 by boxley 6/23/04 5:27:03 PM Reply	payroll taxes plus income taxes=budget Anchorage AK: House for sale 3 bed 1 bath 1440 sq feet huge lot near Cheney Lake 175K FSBO 813.273.3518 I wondered what Darwinian moment had to effect itself before we devolved from children flying paper flags in the sky to half formed creatures thundering in a wall of horns down the road to Roncevaux. James Lee Burke questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

Welcome to IWETHEY!

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