silly is as silly does

Post #150,302 by rcareaga 4/6/04 4:57:01 PM Reply	silly is as silly does ben_tilly: The idea that it is somehow heinous for him to get asked if he writes fiction or nonfiction keeps on coming up. "Heinous" was your term, and the question framed to McEwan (who is quite well-known to those who follow such remnants of English language "literature" as the market has suffered to endure to our wicked day—an admittedly smallish class from whom b_t openly disassociates himself) was (emphasis added, since the word apparently did not register first time out) "What kind of novels do you write: fiction or nonfiction?" Although Truman Capote attempted to get the notion of the "nonfiction novel" accepted a generation ago, it never really caught on, and so for the inspector to put it the way he did would be akin to...oh, I don't know, perhaps to asking McEwan whether his laptop computer used integrated circuits or vacuum tubes. Particularly in view of my long professional association with this crew, it struck me as delightfully droll and all too characteristic of a certain subset of the class. But I speak here as an old English major, and I can certainly appreciate that the ungrasped distinction wouldn't resonate with one who proclaims his own indifference to it. As to b_t's ardent hope that he will not be obliged "to ever deal with [McEwan]," I can of course make no promises, but I do think the likelihood remote. reassuringly, Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist.
Post #150,309 by Another Scott 4/6/04 5:36:49 PM Reply	"Both" ...so for the inspector to put it the way he did would be akin to...oh, I don't know, perhaps to asking McEwan whether his laptop computer used integrated circuits or vacuum tubes. And, of course, he should answer "both" if such a question is posed to him. After all, the display does use a cold-cathode vacuum tube to generate the light in the display, AKA a fluorescent bulb. HTH. >:-) Cheers, Scott. (Who is surprised you didn't recall [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=137120\|this] thread. :-)
Post #150,310 by Ashton 4/6/04 5:47:56 PM Reply	Should the novel aspect fail risibility tests amidst pursang triple-distilled logic, perhaps an equivalent level of casuistry might be - So then, how do I know your Leenux 'install' ain't disaffected by that Nimda worm-thing? Jes tryna be helpful Then there was the Mexican customs guy a askin moi (on our answering that we were headed way South, etc.) "Zapotecs, eh?" ..least they knows their own history in these backward countries, maybe a few writers too. Customs guys, even! :-\ufffd
Post #150,334 by ben_tilly 4/6/04 7:11:52 PM Reply	And this makes you feel superior? I did miss the word "novel". I also admit that I am aware that novels are typically fictional in nature. However I would not be disappointed by a guard who didn't know that. I am more disappointed that a purportedly educated person fails to understand that there is a difference between business and pleasure, and a tourist visa is not sufficient if you're going to be paid for your trip. I'm even more disappointed that in reporting on the story, the fact that the mistake was the novelist's was buried so deeply. The reader is supposed to be outraged that such an eminent person would be held up by bureaucracy. But that is the nature of a bureaucracy. If you get the wrong visa, you get inconvenienced at the border. It happens to me, and it happens to famous people as well. (Unless you are so famous, as this person is not, to have someone else take care of the arrangements.) Well no, I'm not actually disappointed that the reporter would do that. I have been often enough disappointed by reporters that no expectations were violated. But when I was younger and less cynical, I would have been disappointed. As for your obvious pride in being a follower of literature, you are aware that literature has never really been that popular? In fact in many periods, literature has deliberately gone out of its way to be unpopular as a way of distinguishing the elite who follow it from the "common" masses! (This isn't just literature. The same thing happens in the music world as well.) Perhaps this age is worse than most, but I know of no evidence to that effect. Furthermore I've always been happy to let people who wish to isolate themselves in their own elite club stew in isolation. So yes, you belong to a club that you consider elite. You are free to consider me as big a Philistine as you want. If you care to believe that I'm an uninteresting, uncurious bore without a spark of wit, that is your privilege. Our mattering maps could well differ sufficiently sharply that you may never have cause to reconsider that opinion. If that is so, then I wish you the pleasure of your own company. It is far greater than any pleasure that you might get from mine. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #150,342 by Ashton 4/6/04 9:09:57 PM Reply	Let us now braise famous men Pshaw, Ben - psychs call that 'projection', but what do they know. And what you so casually dub 'elite' is often confused with merely an appreciation for the subtle over the crass. Etc. Or had you something else in mind? Imputing darker and divisive mindsets in this fashion is a bit surprising in one who evidently also relishes the subtle - unless you reserve that deliciousness just for Perlmutters (?) Are they also the Scripting Elite? ;-) (As to whether or not litrachur is or is not 'popular' -?- offhand I can't think of a single connection between those concepts. Reading appeals to readers. Is reading 'popular'? Ought it be?) Confused in Peoria Symphony Hall
Post #150,351 by boxley 4/6/04 9:46:27 PM Reply	One mans literature is another mans asswipe I find the author okay, but consider many other authors superior. An Icon of the Literati is Norman Mailer, Aside from the Naked and the dead and Armies of the night his writing sux donkeydicks. I force myself every couple of years to read his latest, I always finish books, cant force myself to finish his. Now I am a fan of Dumas Dickens Capote Wheatly Elliot and Sapir among others. Now I think Viega stated clearly that he knows the custom types upclose and personal and got a giggle over the Sgt Friday types dealing with an artist. That is amusing. Much doodoo about nothing. thanx, Bill "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #150,356 by ben_tilly 4/6/04 10:06:16 PM Reply	I didn't actually call it elite I said, So yes, you belong to a club that you consider elite. Which doesn't mean that I agree. There are lots of "elites" in this world which are just cliques. I've never liked cliques, and I relish any opportunity to place myself on the outside of any that I can. I think that that is different than what you had in mind by the word elite. But your proposed definition is one that the ones who claim to be elite would likely agree with. As for relishing subtle distinctions, you could either assume that I've changed, or assume that I haven't changed and my motivations are not the ones that you might guess. I'd suggest the latter, but it is your choice. When it comes to serious literature, I mostly avoid the genre because I found long ago that it doesn't much appeal to me. More precisely I found that while it makes an effort to present itself as speaking deep truths about humanity, it mostly speaks to the limitations of the authors' understanding of human nature. I have more reliable ways to entertain myself and others to learn about the world around me. Other than sometimes quick demonstrations that I do not aspire to a lofty social standing, my selective apathy does not appear to have harmed me. I have, in fact, far more trouble due to my apathy for keeping up with popular culture. Cheers, Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]
Post #150,366 by boxley 4/6/04 10:41:42 PM Reply	fapfapfapfap " I have more reliable ways to entertain myself "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #150,418 by rcareaga 4/7/04 12:23:33 PM 4/7/04 2:16:38 PM Reply	Re: And this makes you feel superior? Why, no. Really, b_t, you're "reading" far too much into this. What you call my "club" is indeed small, measured against, say, the fanbase for professional football (it's been suggested that the American audience for "serious" literature could fit handily into a modern stadium—not, it is to be hoped, in the seats normally unoccupied in the course of a regular season game), but I neither described it nor regard it as "elite"; nor for that matter did did I call you or do I consider you a "Philistine." These are all assumptions you brought to the party. The boxter had no difficulty in identifying the intent of my original post and followups: stated clearly that he knows the custom types upclose and personal and got a giggle over the Sgt Friday types dealing with an artist. I don't fault the inspectors, or any average citizen, for not knowing McEwan from McKuen—for my own part I know the former largely from book reviews, having read just one of his novels—whereas I do find their apparent lack of awareness that "novel" is a more specific term than "book" richly comic, and thought to share it with my droogies here. Reasonable men may reasonably disagree on the conduct of our doughty border guards in this instance, but I find ben_tilly's caricature of my motives here moderately offensive. cordially, [edit: typo] Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist. Edited by rcareaga April 7, 2004, 02:16:38 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #150,440 by ben_tilly 4/7/04 3:27:19 PM Reply	I'm reacting in part to the tone of the article And in part to the outrage at a fairly innocuous event. First of all are we agreed that if you're going to a country on a tourist visa, you need to convince the guard that you're a tourist? If you want to convince the guard of anything else, you need to have the appropriate visa. Any experienced traveller should know this. Now on to laughing at the guard. It is reasonable for the guard not to know that novels are typically fiction. I've encountered many cases where intelligent, well-educated people have drawn blanks on things that should be common knowledge. (One case that comes to mind involved which continent the Alps are on.) The fact is that it happens, and I've come to react with sympathy, not distain. I've also come to have distaste for people whose first reaction is to make the situation worse by putting down the unfortunate. Perhaps my attitude is due to awareness of the fact that I'm often in the corresponding position when I draw blanks on things that really are common knowledge, such as current ads or popular TV shows. What goes around, comes around, and all that. Ben To deny the indirect purchaser, who in this case is the ultimate purchaser, the right to seek relief from unlawful conduct, would essentially remove the word consumer from the Consumer Protection Act - [link\|http://www.techworld.com/opsys/news/index.cfm?NewsID=1246&Page=1&pagePos=20\|Nebraska Supreme Court]

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