Single-point configuration tool

Post #15,017 by kmself 10/24/01 6:26:21 PM Reply	Single-point configuration tool See also Webmin. LinuxConf is an integrated, single-point-of-access, configuration tool for GNU/Linux. I avoid it like the plague. The upsides: it's gotten a lot better, it centralizes management, it allows for multiple modes of access (console, X, Web), it does some basic handholding. The downsides: it obscures underlying details, it remains counterintuitive, it's not clear when changes are committed, the accompanying help is sorely lacking, generated files are fragile, and the outcome is still an occasionally borked system. My very strong preference is for Debian and direct manipulation of configuration files. Debian is far clearer in its configs than RH (dispute this, I've used both, recently), and the direct access leads to a more complete understanding IMVAO. I haven't used WebMin, you're welcome to look at it. ...and what's this Linux 2 you're going on about? `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #15,023 by addison 10/24/01 6:49:18 PM Reply	Re: Single-point configuration tool The downsides: it obscures underlying details, it remains counterintuitive, it's not clear when changes are committed, the accompanying help is sorely lacking, generated files are fragile, and the outcome is still an occasionally borked system. And its got some massive security issues. Addison
Post #15,078 by kmself 10/25/01 3:08:28 AM Reply	That it most certainly does As I said though, I don't use it. `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #15,097 by dmarker2 10/25/01 9:17:51 AM Reply	Re: Tks guys - got that loud & clear the Linux 2 was a typo meant Linux 7.2 - which I have downloaded & burned onto CDs. Cheers Doug
Post #15,107 by ben_tilly 10/25/01 10:33:59 AM Reply	Um, what 7.2? I think you mean Red Hat 7.2. Other distributions label their revisions differently, and individual packages keep their own numbers. For instance Perl would be at 5.6 and the Linux Kernel 2.4. Cheers, Ben PS As a Debian user, it gets frustrating seeing how many people don't recognize the difference between Red Hat and Linux. It is kind of like how a lot of us react to people who can't tell the difference between computers and Microsoft...
Post #15,110 by dmarker2 10/25/01 10:46:06 AM Reply	Re: Um, what 7.2? Of course - yet a further typo Redhat 7.2 Am still trying to figure out what I do with these 2 ISO RH7.2 CDs I burned - I had hoped the 1st one was bootable. One odity with them is that in the data on the disks it says cd3 & cd4 ? I downloaded the only 2 cds that were shown under RH7.2 Cheers Doug
Post #15,303 by addison 10/26/01 4:28:39 PM Reply	Re: Um, what 7.2? PS As a Debian user, it gets frustrating seeing how many people don't recognize the difference between Red Hat and Linux. hee hee. We've got a guy who's going to build a Beowulf next (fiscal) year. DeadRat is the only thing "approved" for network use (and that's at 6.2 now, 7.1 should be approved in a week or two). He's a slackware kinda guy.. its going to be interesting. :) Addison
Post #15,314 by kmself 10/26/01 5:15:22 PM Reply	Um, what's this downloading ISOs thing all about As a Debian user, I'm mildly bemused by all this "where are the ISOs, damn the sites are slow" stuff. My system update is just another standard `apt-get dist-upgrade` on the release date, at which a slightly larger number of packages are updated, assuming I haven't been tracking unstable, in which case there's little difference. Modify internal rollouts to suit QA tastes. Frankly, incremental updates are less likely to wreak havoc than fell swoop ones. BTW, anyone else note what distro's currently ranked #2 on the LJ readers' choice awards? `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #15,340 by addison 10/26/01 9:12:21 PM Reply	If you don't get your nose down, you'll step in more stinky things.... As a Debian user, I'm mildly bemused by all this "where are the ISOs, damn the sites are slow" stuff. s/Debian/Snobbian As a DeadRat user, I'm very bemused by all the screams for help from Snobbian newbies, and constant complaints "Why is it only tested on DeadRat?!?!?! WAAAAAH". Frankly, incremental updates are less likely to wreak havoc than fell swoop ones. Are you getting more on a release date or not? If you are, then its a similar issue. You're updating. BTW, anyone else note what distro's currently ranked #2 on the LJ readers' choice awards? I didn't, haven't seen it. Nor do I really care. You pays your price, you use what you want, BFD. Sounding a mite.. envious there, Karsten..... (BTW, if you like how Debian does that, and how apt-get works, more power to ya. I don't, personally.) Addison
Post #15,355 by kmself 10/26/01 11:53:38 PM Reply	Release date First, explaining my context: I'd rather handle updates gradually, with an option to back out, and only break a few things, than to have a large number of sudden changes to a system. This is the principle of gradualism. Tracking Debian 'unstable' gives you this. The downside: you're getting raw packages. The upside: the updates are in small (albeit frequent) increments. Most of the bugs get worked out, quickly. The benefit transfers over to 'stable' users, even though, as you suggest, updates tend to be more "big bang". Though on the Big Day, a Debian user will be upgrading a large number of packages, these are packages which have gone through the incremental update process described above, and whose troubleshooting record is generally quite good -- there are generally few major bugs on an initial Debian release, rather markedly unlike the RPM-based distros. Regarding LJ's [link\|http://www2.linuxjournal.com/lj-issues/issue91/5441.html\|Reader's Choice Awards], Debian's climbed from fourth place to second. Not bad for a distribution that competes only on technical merits and features, not marketing. Envy, me? No. ...but you're a bit defensive there, Addy. `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #15,373 by addison 10/27/01 2:03:05 AM Reply	Re: Release date Envy, me? No....but you're a bit defensive there, Addy. Heh. No. Just wanted to point out the converse. Now, if I did it any and every time the mention of Redhat came up, yeah, you'd have a point. ahem. :) Addison
Post #15,380 by pwhysall 10/27/01 3:12:29 AM Reply	Er. What you said. Bastid :) Not that I'd imply that Karsten is some kind of wild-eyed Debian zealot, oh no. Peter Shill For Hire [link\|http://www.kuro5hin.org\|There is no K5 Cabal]
Post #15,394 by kmself 10/27/01 7:36:57 AM Reply	K5, Galeon, ... It's only a matter of time, Pete, you'll see the light. Yep. That's right. . . . . . . . . . Sourdough whole-wheat blueberry yoghurt pancakes with wheat germ. I haven't been wrong yet. `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #15,463 by boxley 10/27/01 10:22:15 PM Reply	I bet when ya get off the John It sticks straight out of the water up and salutes:). Ya want pancakes use oats rye wheatgerm and sourdough, real maple syrop and keep the bluberry yogurt crap for a snack. Now email when ya want the recipe for a chocolate mayonaise cake. thanx, bill tshirt front "born to die before I get old" thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
Post #15,446 by scoenye 10/27/01 7:36:25 PM Reply	Not to burst the bubble... ... but not all is golden there either. When starting a new setup from scratch, the ISO images definitely have their place. They are much easier to recover if something goes awry. A first time Debian incremental installation is feasible when you're on a direct internet connection, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't support PPPoE without a lot of manual intervention. And with a straight ISO image, you also don't have to go hunt for a mirror that stocks the package you're looking for. In my case, it took 10 (!) hours to download disk 1 over a DSL line. IIRC, it only took 4 hours to grab both Mandrake 8 ISOs. Installing Debian was compounded by something occasionally breaking in the download routine (OK, so I shouldn't have used the Windows installer...), causing it to fail on all subsequent package transfers. Restarts are very slow and take progressively more time. Effectively, I had to babysit it until everything was downloaded. To add insult to injury, when converting the pseudo image, it claimed something was wrong with one of the included files. After another re-synch failed again with the same error, I found the signature matched anyway... And of course, all that gives a fairly wrinkled Potato, so the first thing to do is to dowload almost the whole lot again to make things current. I probably will one of these days, but until I find the time and courage, I'll incrementally upgrade my current Frankendrake setup through RPMfind as needed
Post #15,469 by kmself 10/28/01 3:23:44 AM Reply	Choice Debian, as with many things Linux, gives you the choice. You can install from ISOs, you can do the pseudo image thing (though I've heard quite a few horror stories from same), or you can install from a base image plus floppies. Point being: there's more than one way to do it. Frankly, more choices sounds better, not worse, to me. Where I've got a network connection, I far prefer to do the minimal (base/floppies) installation, followed up by an over-the-net update. Even with a slow link, this tends to work well. If needs be, yes, ISOs can be used. They're by no means necessary. The same can't be said for most other distros, AFAIK. `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #15,525 by static 10/28/01 11:50:14 PM Reply	Not to diss on Debian... ... and you should know me well enough, anyway, but the setup routine itself in Debian needs work. Even booting from a boot CD where everything is local, it was still a messy exercise. And installing from the 'net is too expensive an exercise here, otherwise I might really try it. So much that I admire the apt-get way and other things that sound good about Debian, I'm afraid it's not yet enough to get me to conquer it's installation method. (And besides, it left too much wierdness as an installed product. :-) I'll have another look when the official v3 or v2.3 CDs come out. Promise. In the meantime, I will survive with the RH CDs that come on a magazine cover. Wade, who posted this to gently remind Karsten that people do have - in their own minds - good reasons for not trying Debian just yet. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #15,528 by addison 10/29/01 12:25:49 AM Reply	Re: Choice Even with a slow link, this tends to work well. If needs be, yes, ISOs can be used. They're by no means necessary. The same can't be said for most other distros, AFAIK. Look a little farther. :) Addison
Post #15,291 by tjsinclair 10/26/01 2:54:35 PM Reply	Webmin rocks but you still have to know what you're doing. Tom Sinclair Speaker-to-Suits

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