Post #14,967
10/24/01 1:01:14 PM
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Why it's ok to blast away on Ramadan
Muslims already have a history of fighting during Ramadan. They also have a history of attacking their enemies during their holy days in order to take advantage of the opposition's lowered defenses.
In 1973, the Egyptians and Syrians attacked Israel during the Jewish holiday, Yom Kippur, which also happened to be in the middle of Ramadan. The Israeli military was caught by surprise because the intelligence community believed that the Arab armies would not attack at that time because of the coinciding religious observances.
Here's a brief desciption of the [link|http://lexicorient.com/e.o/yomkipwr.htm|Yom Kippur War].
Ray
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Post #15,055
10/24/01 9:50:20 PM
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lexicorient.com
I decided to wander that site for a while, getting a feel.
While I MUST be biased (I was raised on films of the Arab
leaders prepping their troops for the 6 Day War, ie: We will
kill their children and rape their women), that site pushed
it way over the edge.
Just to get a reality check, I read up on the 6 Day War on
www.eb.com. Now THAT is a good site. Which means that
it agrees with my preconceived attitudes of what happened,
of course.
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Post #15,093
10/25/01 8:36:24 AM
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Re: The Ramadan issue
In another thread we thrashed this topic.
Consensus of most participants was it is ok to bomb on Ramadan.
My own view is - yes go for OBL & his bases & where strategically essential, Taliban control, but to clearly avoid civillian casualties or massive civillian disruption (winter & food problems). My concern is if we start seeing pictures of starving or frozen or blasted civilians or if other Mulim countries get whipped up in the belief that the US as infidels are being hypocritical about Mulim deaths & these begin to exceed the disaster in US, then US will have lost moral high-ground & we may suffer.
Some disagreed with my view on this.
But the real issue is never likely to arise as I believe US will have done as much as it can with bombing by then.
Cheers
Doug Marker
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Post #15,101
10/25/01 10:02:00 AM
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My strategy....
...would be to pick a remote part of Afghanistan - there are lots of them available - and set up a military base prior to Nov. 17. Begin fortifying the camp and set up aerial supply drops for food and munitions. And when Ramadan rolls around, simply stop the bombing and bunker down the fort. Turn the tables on the bastards, and see if they are willing to cease hostilities during the holy month?
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Post #15,105
10/25/01 10:29:37 AM
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Does Ke Sahn and Dien bien phiu ring a bell?(spelling sux)
French and Americans tried it in SE Asia French got their asses totally kicked we got bloodied bad for no reason. Never build a fort and wait for the enemy. Seek him out, quickly, strike overwhelmingly and retreat in good order.
thanx,
bill
tshirt front "born to die before I get old"
thshirt back "fscked another one didnja?"
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Post #15,109
10/25/01 10:40:43 AM
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Re: Does TET Offensive
I agree that US should not stop going after OBL - his bases & anyone who tries to stop us doing those things.
Ramadan is meaningless as far as going specifically after OBL & his bases is concerned.
Re the bombing affecting civilians - this link says as well as I could -
[link|http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/south/10/25/gen.afghan.alliance/index.html|Cnn - Northern Alliance suggests pause]
Cheers
Doug
IIRC
Dien Bien Phu was where the Froggies got jumped on by General Nugen Vo Giap in the mid 1950s
Ke Sahn (sp) was a forward US base that got pulverised
TET was when US thought Buddists would be on holiday but agnostic commies pounced
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Post #15,238
10/26/01 9:14:50 AM
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A point being missed IMO
If, as is repeated ad nauseum, this is not a war on Islam, then what possible difference does a religious observance make? If we stop bombing during Ramadan, then we show ourselves as hypocrites and, in effect, say that this is a war on Islam. Consistency demands that that the religious holidays have no influence on any strategy or tactics unless, in fact, this is a war on Islam and not just on terrorism.
/devils advocate mode
Don Richards,
Proud recipient of the ABBA.
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Post #15,248
10/26/01 10:02:30 AM
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Re: A point being missed IMO
"If we stop bombing during Ramadan, then we show ourselves as hypocrites"
Ahhhmazing !!!!
Humour aside. There are actually 3 issues that keep geeting confused ad nauseum. One is bombing OBL & Bases,
another is bombing Taliban for getting in the way. The third is bombing such that any massive civillian disruption occurs during winter when food may not be readily available & it is Ramadan.
But save us all the trouble of dragging this out yet again - it won't become a problem. Trust your leaders (seriously) they deserve trust at this critical time.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #15,252
10/26/01 10:15:55 AM
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Re: A point being missed IMO
There are actually 3 issues that keep geeting confused ad nauseum. One is bombing OBL & Bases, another is bombing Taliban for getting in the way. The third is bombing such that any massive civillian disruption occurs during winter when food may not be readily available & it is Ramadan.
Doug, with all respect, I think you're the only one here getting "confused" about them.
1&2) Its widely reported that OBL and the Taliban are linked in almost every way, that OBL is the actual head of the Taliban. The Taliban's provided logistical and other support, and so they are the *same* as OBL and Al' Queda. The Taliban aren't "getting in the way", they're bodyguarding. In order to take out those terrorist camps, we'll have to take out the Taliban. (most of whom aren't even Afghan).
3) the massive civillian disruption has already taken place. Unlike the Taliban, hiding behind civilians, hoarding/stealing food, our aims are to protect civilians. Again, the _fastest_ way to help people is to get the Taliban *out of the way*. (This is a moral judgement I'm making, granted, but there's lots historically to back me up).
The Afghan people didn't choose the Taliban - and the Taliban's been murdering it way across its controlled areas ever since. They've reportedly killed several hundred in recent weeks, you'll note that's more than our bombings have.
Food's not readily available *now*, what is available is being seized by the Taliban.
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Post #15,327
10/26/01 7:14:32 PM
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Re: A point being missed IMO
I can only offer to agree to diasagree with your 'perspective' on this - I had assumed we had reached the end of any attempt to find common ground on our differing depths of perception.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #15,336
10/26/01 8:42:38 PM
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Re: A point being missed IMO
I can only offer to agree to diasagree with your 'perspective' on this - I had assumed we had reached the end of any attempt to find common ground on our differing depths of perception.
Doug, you never attempted to find ground, you just kept saying the same thing over and over, and in rebuttal to what I asked you, bringing up other issues - but just bringing them up (like "doesn't the stability of Pakistan..." but no *explanation*).
So I find offense at the insinuation that you *did* do that. I explained best I could what I was saying, and just kept running into Glassian arguments.
As for your assumptions, well, as long as you keep pulling a Glass, I might well comment on said same - just as I would with Glass. I might decide its not worth it, like I often do with him, as well.
Addison
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Post #15,367
10/27/01 1:04:02 AM
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Re: A point being missed IMO
We are so far apart on communicating that I did attempt to find one starting point we could either say yes or no to. We don't seem to reached that. What this tells me is that we may well have different styles of argument & debate. That is neither your or my fault.
In order not to get into name calling or insults or personal attacks, I feel we need to find a topic where we can see common ground, even if different aspects, then we might be able to make progress debating things.
I don't hold it against you or me if it transpires that we think in different ways and at different levels, thats life. The most progressive debates occur where each side asks for clarification without being insulting. That is one common area we haven't found during this Afghan Ramadan discussion.
Cheers
Doug
(please take clear note that I have made no negative reflections on you at all - now you try & do the same)
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Post #15,253
10/26/01 10:19:01 AM
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Something wrong with the logic?
Please note the sign off at the bottom of my previous post. Aside from that, what was wrong with the logic?
We are bombing due to war with terrorism
We are not at war with Islam
Islam has a holy period called Ramadan
We keep on bombing
(With the assumption that our fearless leaders are indeed bombing only terrorist targets)
Don Richards,
Proud recipient of the ABBA.
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Post #15,328
10/26/01 7:16:03 PM
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Re: Something wrong with the logic?
Sorry if it bothered you - that line did strike a funny chord for me.
In its simplicity there is probably little wrong with the logic.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #15,539
10/29/01 5:55:18 AM
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UK may halt bombing in Ramadan
[link|http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/29/nblar29.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/29/ixhome.html|Straw says bombing may stop for Ramadan as support for war falters]
"THE Government signalled that it was reconsidering whether to continue bombing Afghanistan during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, amid growing concern that the Allies were losing the propaganda battle."
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