Post #139,572
2/3/04 1:16:06 PM
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ClearCase
I'm going to ask "what version control system do you use" from now on and if its ClearCase I'm going to say "sorry - I only work on CVS". I'd rather dig ditches.
This place just converted to CC (from Perforce no less - I don't like that one much either but its not nearly as crummy) and the servers go down daily. I just lost a bunch of files trying to add them to version control - the server claimed success, then died - meanwhile the client blew away the original files, tried to check them out and failed.
A day's coding - poof.
I'm not even going to bother to rant about their user interface of a million tools - all nearly alike but subtly different in option sets.
.....To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone -- to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone:
.....From the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink -- greetings!
-- George Orwell, 1984
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Post #139,575
2/3/04 1:19:25 PM
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Interesting...
One of the guys here used to use ClearCase, and he considers it to be much better than PVCS.
Tells you how bad PVCS is, I guess.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #139,577
2/3/04 1:22:02 PM
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Yeah, because CVS just doesn't have enough frontends yet
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #139,578
2/3/04 1:25:01 PM
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Huh?
Its got a ridiculous number of front ends including support in all the IDE's I've used plus various standalone guis and the nifty easy command line interface.
.....To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone -- to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone:
.....From the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink -- greetings!
-- George Orwell, 1984
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Post #139,599
2/3/04 1:57:08 PM
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Exactly... how much more can you have? none much more!
--
[link|mailto:greg@gregfolkert.net|greg],
[link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] @ iwethey
"Lately, The only thing keeping me from being a
Serial Killer is my distaste for manual labor."
-- Dilbert Calendar, January 4, 2004
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Post #139,606
2/3/04 2:46:35 PM
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What, didn't you see the implied [sarcasm] tag?
Was agreeing with your original point in a roundabout way. I'd just spent about 1/2-hour reviewing and publishing changes that until recently[1] would have either: - simply been rolled out by the developer without any review
- gone for testing where it might have sat until someone else rolled out a change in the same files and screwed the updates in testing, or (with luck)
- actually been tested and rolled out in a timely fashion.
It's so damn easy now, I can't understand anyone having source control issues. [1] We just implemented CVS after several years with no source control. ===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #139,611
2/3/04 3:10:00 PM
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I'm not that good at spotting sarcasm in person
doubly so on the web.
.....To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone -- to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone:
.....From the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink -- greetings!
-- George Orwell, 1984
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Post #139,602
2/3/04 1:59:42 PM
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?
PVCS, not CVS.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #139,615
2/3/04 3:14:51 PM
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I thought everyone..
..used either CVS or, for frames, whatever the vendor system was. I had a little experience with CVS and it was easy to use and seemed to work. Since it's old as the hills, why is it not used?
-drl
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Post #139,618
2/3/04 3:28:49 PM
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It's not a "vendor"
Some people still need a brand to make a decision.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #139,620
2/3/04 3:37:43 PM
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Re: It's not a "vendor"
I meant - whatever system shipped with the frame. I once had to implement a CC system for VMS, and the choice was the native VMS system (CCS? something like that) or CVS. I chose CVS because it was so easy to use. I can't see what more you'd want.
-drl
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Post #139,622
2/3/04 3:56:01 PM
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He meant CVS isn't a vendor
Who are you buying it from? Who do you sign a contract with? Who do you call when it doesn't work? These are the questions without whose answers normal men quake in fear.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #139,624
2/3/04 3:59:59 PM
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Re: He meant CVS isn't a vendor
Of course how stupid of me, no money changed hands. How could it possibly be any good?
-drl
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Post #139,623
2/3/04 3:59:28 PM
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Oh, I can easily see what more I *want*
Revision control on directories and better diffs on binary files would be good for starters.
But "want" != "need". If I have to use a parallel shell just to get those two, forget it.
--
Select [link|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30|here].
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Post #139,626
2/3/04 4:01:55 PM
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Re: Oh, I can easily see what more I *want*
Maybe this is where people get into trouble - scope creep.
-drl
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Post #139,627
2/3/04 4:06:30 PM
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Subversion supposedly hits the directories issue
Along with the concpet of moving a file, which doesn't exist in CVS. Haven't actually tried it yet though.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #139,630
2/3/04 4:23:01 PM
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Same here:
I am watching it with interest, but haven't tried yet.
--
Select [link|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30|here].
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Post #139,634
2/3/04 4:39:52 PM
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I'm still waiting
Especially after reading this:
[link|http://www.jroller.com/page/fate/20031213|http://www.jroller.c...age/fate/20031213]
I thought that it's high time I try out subversion. After all, some people on the good ship non-retarded-people-who-should-not-be-dismissed-out-of-hand-at-all-times had said it's quite usable and orders of magnitude superior to cvs.
Oh how foolish I was to fall into such candied words! Needless to say, those well intentioned people have now been frogmarched off the gangplank, where they can bob around indefinitely in the sea of turds without causing any further damage with their wild fanciful ideas. It's amazing how easy it is to mistake 'functional' with 'usable'.
---------------
So maybe not quite there yet.
.....To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone -- to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone:
.....From the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink -- greetings!
-- George Orwell, 1984
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Post #139,656
2/3/04 8:50:04 PM
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Re: I'm still waiting
That sounds suspicious:
"the kind of 'aha!' one feels when switching from emacs to IDEA"
I did just that, and instead of "Aha!" I felt something like "Go to to hell, I am going back". His other example, Linux to OS X, does not inspire confidence either.
--
Select [link|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30|here].
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Post #139,672
2/3/04 11:04:31 PM
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Well, as an IDEA fan who uses OS X - I can relate to him
.....To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone -- to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone:
.....From the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink -- greetings!
-- George Orwell, 1984
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Post #139,663
2/3/04 9:23:40 PM
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Shrugs - they're about the same
After all, it's source code control in the end....
Clearcase has a better command line interface (and directory revisioning...and triggers..and it's easier to get code.)
PVCS has (imo) a better promotion path. No clearcase 'views' (thinking that this window his R23 code and it's actually setup to hit R22 code). A better gui (that took FOREVER to load). Did I mention PVCS is cheaper?
Of course, if I was running a company, I'd go with CVS. (But that's me)
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Post #139,665
2/3/04 9:48:42 PM
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The 6.5 GUI sucks
It likes to crash Windows boxes. Nasty thing, it is.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #139,750
2/4/04 12:31:44 PM
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I don't remember which verison we had
...but wasn't the most stable thing either.
What I was referring to was the layout of the data. It had a nice layout and was presented logical. (And, imo, it's a lot easier to see what level code is in PVCS than Clearcase's xclearcase -- with those arrows pointing all around.)
But, I can easily see PVCS's GUI crashing.
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Post #139,580
2/3/04 1:29:10 PM
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I escaped before conversion took place
From what I hear, CC is a tool to lock your bad programmers. When you have a Grand Architect and a bunch of code monkey who don't know what they're doing, you use ClearCase to prevent monkeys from damaging the Great Edifice.
--
Select [link|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30|here].
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Post #139,613
2/3/04 3:12:36 PM
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Actually it just locks everybody
.....To the future or to the past, to a time when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do not live alone -- to a time when truth exists and what is done cannot be undone:
.....From the age of uniformity, from the age of solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink -- greetings!
-- George Orwell, 1984
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Post #139,625
2/3/04 4:01:04 PM
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From what I heard,
it has a concept of Big Boss who approves (or even conducts) every merge into the actual codebase. Things that you check in are kept in your play area on the server, and don't go into production untill Da Boss says so.
--
Select [link|http://www.glumbert.com/pictures/Default.asp?index=30|here].
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Post #139,628
2/3/04 4:06:38 PM
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We actually do that (almost)
Just set the file permissions in the staging and production directories so not everyone has update rights. Then anyone can check things into the repository, but they don't come down to staging without review.
Now if you commit changes, and someone else commits changes on the same files, it's a little harder to stage the second set of changes without the first, but it's doable.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #139,664
2/3/04 9:26:46 PM
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Depends on how it's setup
you CAN allow you developers to do merges...or not.
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Post #139,692
2/4/04 2:47:15 AM
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Wussy tools.
Real Men use CMS on VMS.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
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Post #139,699
2/4/04 4:09:16 AM
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That's the one :)
I evaluated CMS and CVS - CVS was free and easy to use and perfectly functional in the VMS environment. How could I fail to recommend it?
Admittedly we had a small team and only a maintenance project.
-drl
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Post #139,713
2/4/04 7:28:09 AM
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CMS, not CVS.
CVS runs on poncy operating systems like UNIX and Windows.
CMS only runs on VMS.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
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Post #139,714
2/4/04 7:41:45 AM
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Re: CMS, not CVS.
I succeeded in getting CVS to run on VMS quite easily. I can't remember if I compiled it or used a precompiled Alpha VMS version.
-drl
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Post #139,715
2/4/04 8:00:26 AM
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Wuss.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
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Post #139,748
2/4/04 12:26:38 PM
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must be a different CMS
The one I know runs only on [link|http://www.vm.ibm.com/|VM]...
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #139,772
2/4/04 2:45:23 PM
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CMS is a component of DECSET
And if you know what THAT means without googling, you're older and fartier than you look.
But at least you're a Real Man.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
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Post #140,067
2/5/04 3:41:48 PM
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CMS true story
A couple of years back, I was working in the financial industry on the fractional to decimal price conversion [the code running the trading floor]
I was horrified to discover that they were not using _any_ revision control or automated build system - ignorign the perfectly functional ones [CMS, MMS] that were bundled with their operating system [OpenVMS / Alpha]
Was not the most pleasant project - but our teams code worked the first time the QC folks tested it.
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Post #140,121
2/5/04 7:37:05 PM
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hmm,...
I thought you meant DSECT which is an S/370 Assembler term. But no, after a quick google, that's not what you meant.
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #140,214
2/6/04 4:41:48 AM
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Re: hmm,...
That's fairly old farty right there, innit?
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Home Page - Now with added Zing!]
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Post #140,266
2/6/04 11:48:11 AM
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don't have to be old ...
to know old stuff. I wrote my first assembler program in 1984. I wrote my last (most recent??) one in 1997. I'm really not that old; or so I keep telling myself. I seem to have reached the point where that's a common behaviour... :-)
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #140,276
2/6/04 12:49:18 PM
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...to be a fart?
Sorry, couldn't resist! :-)
[link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
You know you're doing good work when you get flamed by an idiot. -- [link|http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/35/34218.html|Andrew Wittbrodt]
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Post #139,774
2/4/04 3:10:53 PM
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Agreed! And it's predecessor.
[link|http://www.multicians.org/thvv/360-67.html|CP-67/CMS]. I had spent decades on these systems.
Alex
The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled. -- Plutarch
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Post #141,217
2/11/04 5:42:06 PM
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ClearCase isn't (necessarily) the problem...
ClearCase is a pain inna ass...if 1) you don't have sufficient privileges to do your work (fairly common, until the admins loosen their anal sphincters about their "brand new toy"), 2) if the server is underpowered, or doesn't have enough resources allocated for it (corollary: They always underestimate), 3) The network is anything less that 10Base100, and 4) the admins are inexperienced, clueless, arrogant, or stupid (this is an inclusive 'or').
I believe I've described 95% or the environments in which ClearCase is deployed.
However, I've worked with it in one of the 3 documented cases where none of the above caveats are present...and it is a dream (compared to the other VC systems I've had to deal with.
Since you've just switched, the MTBS (Mean Time Before Shakedown) is about a month, so consider that things are not going to go smoothly for another 4 weeks. After that, things may actually start working.
And if they tell you they're going to implement UCM before they get everything working smoothly in base Clearcase, shoot the admin!!!
(And, no, I'm not a ClearCase admin, nor do I own stock in Rational...are you kidding?!?)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
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Post #142,008
2/16/04 9:30:12 PM
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They started with UCM
Lemme guess - this will multiply the "shakedown" time by - what - 100?
I object to a system that requires me to check in all work before getting a local update - I also object to a system that requires explicit checkout to work on a file - especially when said checkout takes about 20 seconds to occur *and* I object to systems that can possibly destroy work (which this one has).
One man's dream is another man's eternal nightmare.
The tree of research must from time to time be refreshed with the blood of bean counters.
-- Alan Kay
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Post #142,013
2/16/04 9:40:34 PM
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LRPD (new thread)
Created as new thread #142012 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=142012|LRPD]
-drl
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Post #142,084
2/17/04 2:04:37 PM
2/17/04 2:04:55 PM
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20 seconds to check out...
... indicates clear violations of Conditions 2 or 3 (again, inclusive OR).
And your factor is a little high; in practice, it only increases the shakedown by a factor of 40 or so...
;-)
jb4
shrub\ufffdbish (Am., from shrub + rubbish, after the derisive name for America's 43 president; 2003) n. 1. a form of nonsensical political doubletalk wherein the speaker attempts to defend the indefensible by lying, obfuscation, or otherwise misstating that facts; GIBBERISH. 2. any of a collection of utterances from America's putative 43rd president. cf. BULLSHIT
Edited by jb4
Feb. 17, 2004, 02:04:55 PM EST
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