Post #130,832
12/15/03 1:11:34 PM
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What about the other one?
U.S. Administrator Paul Bremer making an announcement in Iraq:
"Ladies and gentlemen, we got him."
No. Not Osama bin Laden. Not the one who hurt us. Not the one who is working to hurt us again.
But we'll get around to him, oh, one of these days. President Bush will probably start looking for him right before the election of 2004.
lincoln
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Post #130,836
12/15/03 1:29:16 PM
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Not to worry.
If you are a [link|http://www.nationalreview.com/york/york091102.asp|bin Ladin] that is. Bill Carter, the FBI spokesman, is adamant. "We were given full access to the individuals on that plane," he says, "and we were satisfied that we did not believe any of those individuals had anything to do with the 9/11 plots."\t
The plane to which Carter refers was an aircraft chartered by the Saudi government in the days after the terrorist attacks. The individuals were two dozen members of Osama bin Laden's extended family who had been living in the United States. Saying they were afraid that family members might suffer retribution in the U.S., the Saudis asked for American assistance in getting them out of the country. With the help of the FBI, the Saudis and the bin Laden family chartered an aircraft to pick up family members in Los Angeles, Orlando, and Washington, D.C. The bin Laden plane then flew the relatives to Boston, where \ufffd one week after the attacks \ufffd the group left Logan Airport bound for Jeddah. Alex
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true. -- Demosthenes, Greek orator (384-322 BCE)
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Post #130,876
12/15/03 4:14:21 PM
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When Israel (or US) arrests the relatives of terrorists
you say they are wrong (justifiably so). When they let go the relatives of terrorists, you say they are wrong. There is no pleasing you, is there?
--
"There's nothing more nervous than a million dollars. It does not speak French, it does not speak English, it does not speak German and it moves very fast."
-- Jean Chretien
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Post #130,879
12/15/03 4:20:08 PM
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Hey, I was a student pilot back then.
And they grounded ME. Those fsckers got to fly before I was allowed to - because I was considered a greater security risk by MY government than Osama's immediate family. I know, in reason, you've seen that kind of lunacy before - in Mother Russia, pre-1991, but it was never supposed to happen here.
So you're damned right I'm pissed off about this. And yes, it IS personal.
bcnu,
Mikem
Java, Junk. Both start with a "J", both have four letters. Coincidence? I think not.
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Post #130,885
12/15/03 4:35:10 PM
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Consider it logically
They knew who binLaden relatives were. The dossie on probably fills rooms and rooms. They did not know who you are. Would you rather have it the other way around?
--
"There's nothing more nervous than a million dollars. It does not speak French, it does not speak English, it does not speak German and it moves very fast."
-- Jean Chretien
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Post #131,047
12/16/03 4:15:45 PM
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Well, they *DID* KNOW I WAS AN AMERICAN.
And, if you've forgotten or weren't raised that way, it used to mean that I was innocent until proven guilty.
bcnu,
Mikem
Java, Junk. Both start with a "J", both have four letters. Coincidence? I think not.
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Post #131,056
12/16/03 5:13:04 PM
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Hard to bring my head around
the idea that simply because you were born here, you can fly days after major national catastrophe involving airplanes. May be my kids will get used to this thought.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
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Post #131,070
12/16/03 7:09:07 PM
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A simple test:
Tell me where in uncontrolled airspace, under which FAA regulation - or other federal law, the FAA has the right to ground its citizens without charge, without them having committed any violation of any other regulation and maybe I'll be more understanding of your position.
That was the very first time in our history that such an unprecedented rights grab was perpetrated by our friends at the FAA. Not even after Pearl Harbor was attacked did the FAA have the BALLS to ground all of General Aviation. Look it up: GA kept flying the entire time.
In case you weren't paying attention, General Aviation was NEVER the problem. The folks flying around in everything from Cessna 150's to Skyhawks, Skylanes, Pipers, Mooneys and Maules NEVER, EVER were a threat and damned near all of them were US CITIZENS.
I don't know what's hard to understand about this: my rights were stripped away for ABSOLUTELY NO REASON AT ALL. Yet, Osama's kinfolk didn't make a similar sacrifice depite the fact that ONE OF THEIR OWN COMMITTED THOUSANDS OF MURDERS!
bcnu,
Mikem
Java, Junk. Both start with a "J", both have four letters. Coincidence? I think not.
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Post #131,077
12/16/03 7:45:16 PM
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Well well now...there was that kid in tampa
that flew his Cessna into a building.
I think it resulted in one casualty...him.
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Post #131,091
12/16/03 8:40:30 PM
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That was a sad case.
I remember hearing some pilots at that time say, "It's too bad about that kid. But if there's anything good that can come of it, maybe they'll back off us GA types since they've seen pretty clearly that even if we wanted to fly our aircraft into buildings, we wouldn't do much damage."
bcnu,
Mikem
Java, Junk. Both start with a "J", both have four letters. Coincidence? I think not.
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Post #131,120
12/16/03 10:51:58 PM
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I don't know trhe law.
But the circumstances were exceptional. Pearl Harbor doesn't even begin to compare. It was not attacked by people most of whom were in US legally. It was not attacked by civilian airplanes. Protecting US skies from Japanese was a nonissue comparing to defending against a 9/11-style attack.
Suppose simeone load a car bomb into a plane and dives into a federal building. Is it likely? No. Is it impossible? No. And imagine the effect of such happenning on Sept 13.
If the law was violated, it's indeed a problem. You could sue and get satisfaction. But, days after the kind of event that took place on 9/11, I am willing to temporarily accept minor violations, as long as I still have a venue to rectify them at leisure.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
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Post #131,141
12/17/03 3:16:55 AM
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Mutter mutter liberty security mutter mutter
Peter
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Post #131,161
12/17/03 8:45:47 AM
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Yeah, I know. LIke I said,
I hope my kids will be better than me.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
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Post #131,183
12/17/03 10:27:23 AM
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Thanks Peter!
Ya beat me to it!
(Must have something to do with the time zones, don'cha think?)
jb4
"There are two ways for you to have lower Prescription-drug costs. One is you could hire Rush Limbaugh's housekeeper ... or you can elect me President."
John Kerry
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Post #131,213
12/17/03 12:03:28 PM
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Niven's Law is what you're looking for
K=F*S
F = Freedom
S = Security
K = Constant that varies based on the society's norms.
I have a blue sign on my door. It says "If this sign is red, you're moving too fast."
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Post #131,184
12/17/03 10:32:45 AM
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Hmm....well, they weren't similar, but....
I think you have the situation reversed. It was not attacked by people most of whom were in US legally. It was not attacked by civilian airplanes. Protecting US skies from Japanese was a nonissue comparing to defending against a 9/11-style attack.
Actually, with Pearl Harbor, it was the act of outright aggression. The death totals were similar - 2,335 in Pearl Harbor, 3,025 in 9/11. But you forget that while the Pearl Harbor deaths were lower, they sank 26 of our fighting fleet. (Weakening our Pacific Coast for a possible invasion.) So, we were looking at not only protecting US skies from Japanese - but also our native soil. Suppose simeone load a car bomb into a plane and dives into a federal building. Is it likely? No. Is it impossible? No. And imagine the effect of such happenning on Sept 13.
But hasn't that already happened? Did we have a car bomb already attempted against the WTC? (In fact, wasn't the guy who did that supposed to stand trial 9/12?) As for the Federal Building - didn't we have that with the Oklahoma City bombing? Have we suspended truck driving? Outlawed the selling of diesel fuel and fertilizer? Admittedly, there were allegations - lots and lots of allegations, that they could have chemical weapons and attacks could be made with crop dusters and other light planes. That's how they could justify what they did to GA. Trouble is - there wasn't much in the way of proof. Even the 9/11 attackers never used any WMD...just ordinary knives, boxcutters, and possibly pistols. There's been allegations about dirty bombs - dangerous semi-nuclear devices. (Lots and lots of knee-jerking). But has there really been changes to operations and security at places that could kill millions (like Chemical plants)? And no one seems too concerned about the poisoning of water sources - which would affect whole cities. (Well, there is people concerned, but they are poo-poo'ed as being Wacko Environmentalists).
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Post #131,350
12/18/03 10:22:20 AM
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I started writing a point-by-point rebuttal,
and realized that I am about to defend the imprisonment of Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor. I guess that does it. I officially declare mmofit a winner of this debate. I'll go read Constitution now.
--
"It\ufffds possible to build a reasonably prosperous society that invests in its people, doesn\ufffdt invade its neighbors, opposes Israel and stands up to America. (Just look at France.)"
-- James Lileks
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Post #131,200
12/17/03 11:33:41 AM
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You couldn't carry much of a conventional bomb...
in most light aircraft (read GA). They just don't haul that much weight! And you'd darned sure want to get the aircraft at least off the ground.
You'd be far better off putting a bomb in a Ford Pinto than you would be using most GA aircraft for that purpose.
So that part of your argument doesn't "fly" either. :-p
As far are your kids go, I hope that yours (and mine), should they choose to stay in this country, are not the first generation of Americans to see all the hard fought, hard won liberties disappear to the cries of the screaming, scared little me-me's that unfortunately make up a greater and greater percentage of their countrymen.
bcnu,
Mikem
Java, Junk. Both start with a "J", both have four letters. Coincidence? I think not.
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Post #130,917
12/15/03 8:53:46 PM
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You're not right about that.
There is no problem in holding and interrogating family members of a terrorist as long as you set them free if there is no evidence to tie them to a crime. Inconveniencing innocent relatives of terrorists is understandable. Punishing the innocent is wrong.
The bin Ladens got preferential treatment and minimal questioning. All that because of the special relationship between the Saudi rulers and the Bushes. The bin Ladens got to fly out of US before some Americans I personally know got to fly to their home from Alaska.
Alex
A man is his own easiest dupe, for what he wishes to be true he generally believes to be true. -- Demosthenes, Greek orator (384-322 BCE)
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Post #130,920
12/15/03 9:10:19 PM
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hey, ya got a couple of extra days out of it :-)
stick a spork in it.
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