Post #128,533
12/2/03 8:38:38 PM
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India hits back on outsourcing job fears
The Indian government went on the offensive last week on the contentious issue of the loss of U.S. and European jobs to India due to outsourcing.
Offshore outsourcing from the U.S. and Europe to India is the result of barriers to free movement of Indian professionals to these countries, Indian prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee told a business summit of the European Union (EU) and India on Saturday in Delhi.
"The demographic profile of Europe and America necessarily means that these countries will need the induction of a younger work force from outside in the coming decades," said Vajpayee who added that if there was a more liberal regime for the free movement of businessmen and professionals from India to these countries, this demand for workers could be met within these countries.
[link|http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/12/01/HNindiahitsback_1.html|source] lincoln
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Post #128,573
12/3/03 6:40:47 AM
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alex's BW link - the Myth
Notice one of the authors was Indian - so naturally, the tone of the article perpetuates the Big Lie, the Myth, that those people are smarter than our people.
I have skills. I have math. I have an advanced science degree. I am better than most Indian workers in the U.S. by an enormous margin. I am a CITIZEN OF THIS COUNTRY. What I don't have is a job.
I'm coming to despise these people, this miserable subset of the Indian population, for their tricky, deceptive, lying ways. Get them the hell out of my country! If they want to be citizens, let them get in goddamn line! Until then, let them go the hell home and solve their own damn pressing problems - such as the grinding poverty the great majority of their countrymen suffer under. But no - they are greedy opportunists seeking to escape, rather than change, their homeland.
-drl
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Post #128,575
12/3/03 7:20:10 AM
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Welcome to the global market
We (the white western hegemony) spent 300 years giving the Indians (and the Chinese, and the Africans, and the...) the royal shaft.
Now they're just returning the favour.
Get over yourself. And remember, you're as much an immigrant as they are.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
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Post #128,577
12/3/03 7:26:14 AM
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BS
I was born here - I am no immigrant.
And my heart is just bleeding for those people..(Why should it? Their own damn countrymen don't give a flying fsck about'em..)
As for global markets - I, and my fellow citizens, didn't make the rules - so piss on the rules.
-drl
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Post #128,622
12/3/03 12:07:03 PM
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The Global "Work Slave" Market
Well Merry Olde England had colonies in India IIRC, not the USA. Also had it's hooks into China (Tiwan, Hong Kong) and if I am not mistaken Africa as well.
What we have here, since the 1980's, is the third world learning how the rest of the world does business and how to improve their countries. They are learning free enterprise, free trade, and how to grow their economy. USA Businesses have been teaching third world businesses since the 1980's ever since we outsourced manufactoring to them. They quickly adapted. Much like Japan and Germany did after World War II, they built businesses, moved products, and improved their economies. Now India, Packistan, China, Africa, The Philopeans, Thailand, Korea, Vietnam, Brazil, and other countries are starting to get their economies fixed and starting to get competitive. India is growing so fast, that US companies have decided to move the IT sweatshops to a different country that pays less.
They are not giving us the shaft, Businesses who hire them are giving us the shaft. Important to know the difference. They are just Work Slaves, earning 50 cents an hour, 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, no overtime pay, and poor working conditions. Once their country's economy improves and their currency rises to compete with the US dollar, the companies will move their outsourcing to a different country. Which in turn will be giving them the shaft.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #128,624
12/3/03 12:11:49 PM
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Read your history. And my post.
I said "we".
And what is nowadays called "The United States Of America" was a British colony. (STFU about England. We've been United for longer - much longer - than YOU). What on earth did you think the War Of Independence was ABOUT?
You might think that they're working 16 hours a day 6 days a week at 50 cents an hour, if that helps you. Thing is, they're not. True, they're not earning what would be considered a living wage in the UK or USA, but then they don't live in either of those countries. They're still clearly earning whatever their skills are worth in their country.
To be perfectly honest, the USA deserves it in return for Bhopal, if nothing else. We deserve it for the shit that BP pulled in SE Asia and Nigeria. (Whoops, did we blow up your entire working family? Gee, sorry.)
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
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Post #128,657
12/3/03 2:35:27 PM
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Re: Read your history. And my post.
When YOUR job is forfeit, you'll sing a new tune, Tommy.
-drl
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Post #129,058
12/4/03 11:44:07 PM
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Different versions of history apparently
The version I read was that we actually won our war of Independance. We also actually saved your country's rear end in WWI and WWII. We may not have been United as long as your country has, but we have contributed a lot of inventions and ideas to the world. Not to mention that we made it to the moon and back. :)
I got that rate from family members living in Thailand and working in factories there. They do get paid 50 cents an hour, and do work 6 day weeks at 16 hours a day. They also live in a family house, which is very small, and can have as many as a dozen or more people living there. I went over for a visit in October 2000 and learned these things. So what is your source of information? That they make $5USD/hr and work 8 hour days 5 days a week and live in an air conditioned timeshare? :) They wish, AC is something they cannot afford. Heck their kitchen was outside and they use propane tanks for the stove. If we didn't send them money they wouldn't even have a washing machine, which one of my sister-in-laws use to wash clothes for other people to make extra money. Don't know why they don't have time to wash their own clothes, working 16 hours a day, slackers! :)
Thing is it is not the country or government that is getting hurt here, it is the hard working middle-class citizens who are getting the shaft. People that had nothing to do with Bhopal. There is no justice in that.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #129,090
12/5/03 11:33:12 AM
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Just a quick correction here...
The version I read was that we actually won our war of Independance. Just a quick correction - it wasn't so much that we "won" the war of independance as it was that the British got bored of kicking our asses and went home. A minor point, but significant nonetheless. I have a red sign on my door. It says "If this sign is blue, you're going too fast."
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Post #129,094
12/5/03 12:03:22 PM
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Which is how Vietnam won against the USA
And is how the people fighting us in Iraq plan to win as well.
What goes around, comes around. Except this time we are the ones paying the big bills.
Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #129,096
12/5/03 12:08:43 PM
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Which, it seemed, was perhaps Peter's original point
Hey, the Brits have a long institutional history of conquest, occupation, and colonisation. Might know something about how it works...
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Post #129,235
12/6/03 2:55:31 AM
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Ding! Thankyou :)
Peter
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Post #129,097
12/5/03 12:08:50 PM
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The book!
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Post #129,158
12/5/03 2:31:20 PM
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:-)
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
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Post #129,101
12/5/03 12:17:24 PM
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Re: Just a quick correction here...
Not quite true - the Americans had significant victories in set battles - not at first, but after getting organized and better funded. Remember the colonies thought themselves more or less autonomous and it was not easy to get them to cooperate.
England had issues with France that were "more pressing" - and in any case, they lost very little in not having the colonies, which had become more or less autonomous by 1760 in any case, to directly supervise. So it is true, they didn't give it a maximum effort - but it is not correct to say they "got tired of kicking our asses and left". Washington turned out to be a superb strategist and fairly defeated the British by skilful maneuvering and tactics when force alone was not enough. These men were not stupid, and they would not have started a war they were not convinced could be won.
A similar argument is often made about the Turks at Galipoli - that they won only because the British were forced to cope with impossible terrain, that the British and Anzacs eventually just said "neener" and split - no, the Turks made a brilliant defense with a force outnumbered 10 to 1 by exploiting interior lines and advantageous terrain.
-drl
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Post #129,120
12/5/03 1:01:24 PM
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Maybe at first
but once the Minutemen got organized and started using guerrilla warfare instead of standing up in the battlefields and firing in a straight line until everyone was dead, they started to actualy win battles. The British outnumbered them and used German mercinaries, but the US had France as an ally to help out. After they decided that it was a war that waan't worth winning, the British pulled out and gave up.
So in the version of history that I read, we won the war of independance. We are no longer colonies to England. Also saying that we are the same as England because our roots came from there because of the colonies is a falsehood. The US is a melting pot of people from all over the world. We are all not having roots from Merry Olde England anymore. There is quite an ethic mix of people in the US, so you cannot lump us in with England anymore. To do so would be wrong and politically incorrect.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #128,621
12/3/03 11:56:46 AM
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The fact you seem to be forgetting
is that they can work cheaper than you or I could. That fact, and that fact alone makes them more valuable to US Companies than any Native Born US Citizen ever could become.
So much so that they overlook the language barrier, the low quality of work, the miscommunications, the low morale and productivity, the malware in code, the rudeness to customers on a help desk, and any other factors that crop up from them. If any native born US citizen did any of those things, they would be fired quicker than you could say "Synergy" or some other management buzzword.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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