Post #125,024
11/10/03 10:20:38 PM
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I have no argument with your intent.
Indeed I find it reasonable...perhaps a tad unnecessary...but otherwise an ok thing to do.
HOWEVER.
And it was offered...
The use of a specific, publicized and completely separate email address for those sites that require it is what was asked of you last time.
You simply chose to ignore those that asked you to do this...because I'm guessing it either represented some sort of inconvenience to you or you thought our wishes were misguided.
I, unfortunately, was never operating under any mistaken assumptions. I understood perfectly what you were doing then...as I understand perfectly what you are doing now.
All that you were asked to do was use an email address other than the mailing list.
How fucking hard is that?
And now we have goodbye's, insults, and petty bullshit because you, for whatever reason, decided to ignore the wishes of people on the list...and the list responded in exactly the same manner as it did 11 months ago.
Surprise??? Really??? You're kidding, right?
And I commend you for apologizing for your complete and utter overextension of your admin role.
Its simple really. You think its an over-reaction...this time and the last. Maybe it is.
Rick Moen thinks were idiots to the point of insanity. Maybe we are.
Neither changes the simple fact that you were asked after the first occurence to not do it again.
And you did.
And you again are acting surprised that it actually pissed people off. Again.
A simple...oops I fucking forgot last December would have solved the entire issue...even if it was a lie.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #125,034
11/11/03 12:34:22 AM
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Frightfully logical
YAN exercise in mob shriek psych, I thought. But then, what are my credentials.. I haven't even killed a patient in my clinic, yet.
'It' could have been undone simply - except for the apparently hard-coded pissing match about Authority and then Punishment.
What a waste. Y'all get to be Righteous because He Didn't Follow Orders. Again! (Instead - it looks like - he thought through the means for making *this* trial pain-free, he thought. Maybe thought it a pleasant surprise, for any interested.) Radical thought: just maybe some material from Out There might be of interest to The List members, after vetting. But then.. Why.. he.. Skipped a Step!
If someone else had made a sl. different 'innovation':
please to call it research. Then, if the innovation proved more onerous than expected, ~ "OK we tried it and, it's a PITA. Please remove. Thanks for your effort, though!" At least I Hope that would be the generic process.. though now I'm not at all sure.
If Karsten:
then let's make an Example. He has ignored the putative 'majority'! - well, of the small part of the List who ever post to the list. Maybe. (Must be a boatload of lurkers.) If 'taking precautions' == 'ignoring'. Yeah, maybe he should have recalled the previous Sky Falling hyperbole; not have been so confident that, once explained - his present precautions would be seen to have been adequate. Bad Karsten: acting spontaneously.
I Love It when folks talk about "If Only He'd ___" Still and all, we "put up with" folks here, across a large range of talents and propensities to irritate; I believe that such toleration is generally associated with ideas like 'maturity' / freedom from rote judgments about motives, and the like. And some foibles kinda grow on one.. the whiney posts kinda leaven the stark didactic How-tos and such, I think.
Karsten tends to just Try Things without a formal vote. What a hideous nonconforming attribute - why, people like that might try almost Anything. And without permission from moi! :-0
(IIRC we even had a complaint about Clockwork --> OmiAllah; we failed to obtain pre-consensus!) We can be sure that Next April 1 shall pass uneventfully; I'm sure my plot for a dead-chicken on-a-doorknob Logo shall be voted down. Never mind the Surprise! factor. Logicians like process. With safeguards. In advance. Let's All be Safe and unSurprised, shall we?
{mumble}
Scary.. such unhomogeneous flippancy. And with no Authority, even. Best to make sure that no one ever tries to change /add anything there - again. Wait - no need.
Ashton
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Post #125,058
11/11/03 4:44:03 AM
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Take 2
On reflection.. having now read all the posts instead of just 90%
This is an utterly smarmy apologia for the massive mob overreaction to a simple trial feature, followed by mob-pile-on with full ad hominems -- maybe the worst (and least tenable) by one who doesn't even post on IWE! Yep, had he just consulted everyone at all times before ever trying anything.. No technical 'clarification' can justify the petulant BS I just reread.
Rob's Position of Having No Position Except the Imaginary-mob's - is in same petulant spirit as your post. Nobody Asked 'The List'. A handful of Avengers pretended to Be The List.
I don't think you've pondered for a second, the resource you and a handful have rushed to jettison for Bad Boy misbehaviour: an event completely without any lasting consequences for The. List. or for any of the legions of silent members supposedly On The List. And that List is not zIWE. But we are going to lose Karsten because of the small overlap who joined in the massacre.
One thing I'll bet: you won't be taking up the slack in either technical writing or TWiki housekeeping - now vacated. And those who know many Debian intricacies - won't be explaining those quite as well, or with nearly as complete refs.
And I know some other things I'll miss, along with Karsten's presence. One is respect.. something no mob has ever deserved.
I also note that these punctilious Enforcement Procedures were commited without my vote being sought, and I've seen that sort of 'dialogue' only on schoolyards when the teacher was absent: 'democracy' my ass. Lord of the Flies. I'll repeat -
IT Eats Its Own
unless they conform to the opinions of the loudest.
Ashton
I come from experimental physics; a different attitude there towards Trying Things. The significant difference now chafes more than usually, as I discern the extent of 'procedural regimentation' many of you folk must get from 24/7 list sorting and perhaps - biz hierarchy ?? Maybe after a while - those artificial titles begin to seem to mean something.
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Post #125,069
11/11/03 7:20:30 AM
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You know,,,
I may miss these resources...but will maintain that this is an over-reaction on his part to something he should have expected and could have easily avoided. (indeed was given the opportunity to avoid by using iwethey@iwethey.org).
Yes...it is an extremely minor...nearly trivial act that started this.
Not the point.
The point is he was asked not to do it. And when those same people became upset >again< (dood...we asked you knot to do that!!) he decided to over-react and now leave. (If I can't do what I want, I ain't playing anymore).
Quite simply...I like Karsten....I will miss Karsten....but if Karsten wants to act like a spurned child...thats his prerogative and I'm certain that I will not be able to change his mind about it.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #125,088
11/11/03 9:23:20 AM
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Over-react? Act childish?
You sure your still talking about Karsten?
The whole mess was dissapointing and I'll be unsubscribing from the list as soon as possible. Autocrats who yell "It's a democracy" are the worst sort of hypocrits.
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
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Post #125,092
11/11/03 9:36:34 AM
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Language is imperfect.
There were overreactions on both sides. The discussion probably should have ended after the 2nd exchange from each participant, but it didn't.
The principals (Rob, Peter, and Karsten) were each trying to do what they thought was ultimately best for the list, but there was insufficient communication before hand.
I hope you'll stick around, Don.
Cheers,
Scott.
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Post #125,093
11/11/03 9:40:14 AM
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Not leaving
Just dropping membership in the list. I never post to it and the only reason I'm still on it is laziness. I don't want to see that kind of crap again though, so I'll be removing myself as soon as I find the link to do so.
Fucking worse than spam.
-----------------------------------------
It is much harder to be a liberal than a conservative. Why?
Because it is easier to give someone the finger than it is to give them a helping hand.
Mike Royko
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Post #125,180
11/11/03 4:07:43 PM
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To counter slightly
Yes, indeed, I still maintain that Karsten is over-reacting.
I also maintain that main reason for it is obstinance...but K is not necessarily the source of that.
But again, my statement above appears to be a misrepresentation...as it was not directly asked of Karsten...only offered as a suggestion...and so, as in the other area offer an apology for this misrepresentation.
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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