Post #124,573
11/7/03 5:31:56 AM
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Linux annoyances
Yes, there's an [link|http://www.weinstein.org/linuxannoyances/index.html|O'Reilly book] in the works. With a useful [link|http://www.weinstein.org/linuxannoyances/outline.html |outline]. But I thought I'd ask y'all. \r\n\r\n What are some of the things that bug you about Linux. Without placing blame, just things that you can't do (as easily) as on another platform. In the spirit of advising someone who's considering a switch of what they can expect. \r\n\r\n My own list. \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n- It's Not Windows™. Get used to it. It's going to be different. In many ways it's better, but there are some things you'll find you have to do differently, or in a very few instances, cannot do.
\r\n\r\n- Multimedia. Proprietary formats and codeci are not supported on Linux...or at least not legally (mplayer hits a lot of them).
\r\n\r\n- Fonts. Configuration is still a black art. Yes, getting drastically better. But...
\r\n\r\n- IP filtering. How many !@#$%^&*() methods, with a lifetime of three years each, do we need?
\r\n- Bleeding edge hardware. Vendors don't make their specs available. Fsck 'em.
\r\n\r\n- Clean "shut down now, by a user" solution. I've seen a half a kilohacks, but there's not a single consistent way to do this.
\r\n\r\n- Removeable media. Yes, autofs makes floppies and cdroms a lot easier to deal with, but USB devices still show up at random (ok: inconsistant) places, and odd apps will grab hold of my CD and not let go.
\r\n\r\n- MS Office applications compatibility. It's good and getting better. OOo and SO both do a pretty good job, and last I heard, MS Office 97 runs for the most part under WINE. But neither are totally clean.
\r\n\r\n- Audio configuration. Still haven't set up ALSA though I'm sure I'll love it when I do.
\r\n\r\n- Web accessibility. Some sites restrict browser type, or depend on features only supported on Microsoft platforms. Fairly few, fortunately.
\r\n\r\n- Choice. Sometimes TMTOWTDI means you have to do some work to figure out where the user is and how to get them out of the puzzle. Makes script-driven support idiots harder. OTOH, makes scrited recovery tools more possible.
\r\n\r\n- Calendaring. There's still not a good answer to MS Outlook in this regard.
\r\n\r\n- Single-sign-on solutions. I suppose there's an answer lurking in LDAP somewhere. I need to know what it is. Microsoft answers this problem(for MSFT-only networks) pretty well.
\r\n\r\n- Searching for solutions. In many cases there is an answer. If you can find it. And if you can sort out the conflicting claims of different advisors. Fortunately, comparing solutions is usually pretty low-cost, but it's still a bit of a headache.
\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n Any other contributions? --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #124,577
11/7/03 6:13:09 AM
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You forgot printers.
Same situation as fonts ("still a bit of a black art, but getting better") and leading-edge hardware (lack of documentation).
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #124,578
11/7/03 6:57:56 AM
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Printers: CUPS
Omission was largely intentional. Though I had to leave something for the rest of y'all to gripe on. \r\n\r\n Works pretty well in my experience. Yes, the documentation is wanting, and autodetect / polling would be really cool (or a directory-based assignment). But I have to say that printing under Linux is vastly far less a pain than in years past. \r\n\r\n And in all measures, it beats any other Unix printer config (though CUPS answers to that as well). --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #124,579
11/7/03 8:40:15 AM
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A lot of the drivers suck though.
I'm still looking for a driver for my Canon i960. This goes under your bleeding edge hardware gripe too.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #124,582
11/7/03 9:04:58 AM
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Re: A lot of the drivers suck though.
It's Ghostscript that sucks.
My Lexmark came with a binary "unclean" Linux driver. Works perfectly.
-drl
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Post #124,581
11/7/03 9:03:33 AM
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Re: Linux annoyances
It's Not Windows?. Get used to it. It's going to be different. In many ways it's better, but there are some things you'll find you have to do differently, or in a very few instances, cannot do.
The only thing I can't do is make decent PDFs. pstopdf makes horrible output - could be there's a way to tweak it but I don't know how.
Multimedia. Proprietary formats and codeci are not supported on Linux...or at least not legally (mplayer hits a lot of them).
Shrug. Flash is all I care about.
Fonts. Configuration is still a black art. Yes, getting drastically better. But...
It is? No problems here. Symlink all the ttfs in /windows/fonts, mkfontscale, mkfontdir, SuSEconfig -module fonts. Done. GTK apps are still braindead about fonts - that's your issue.
IP filtering. How many !@#$%^&*() methods, with a lifetime of three years each, do we need?
YaST gets the firewall up in seconds - then tweak it. There are a thousand kernel options for filtering - just make them all modules.
Bleeding edge hardware. Vendors don't make their specs available. Fsck 'em.
Why should hardware makers play ball when there is no money to be made in desktop Linux? But this beef is legitimate - so buy hardware that works - IBM.
Clean "shut down now, by a user" solution. I've seen a half a kilohacks, but there's not a single consistent way to do this.
If you're REALLY too lazy to su to root for shutdown, make a user called "bye" with a shell /sbin/shutdown.
Removeable media. Yes, autofs makes floppies and cdroms a lot easier to deal with, but USB devices still show up at random (ok: inconsistant) places, and odd apps will grab hold of my CD and not let go.
Hotplugging. SuSEconfig gathers all hotplug information in one place.
MS Office applications compatibility. It's good and getting better. OOo and SO both do a pretty good job, and last I heard, MS Office 97 runs for the most part under WINE. But neither are totally clean.
All I need is Word compatibility, and KWord has that.
Audio configuration. Still haven't set up ALSA though I'm sure I'll love it when I do.
I've had alsa up on five different laptops in no time flat. SuSEconfig gathers all alsa configuration information in one place.
The lesson - the init scripts and config data are centralized under SuSE, making all this trivial.
Web accessibility. Some sites restrict browser type, or depend on features only supported on Microsoft platforms. Fairly few, fortunately.
Konqueror does MSN sites as well as IE. Enough said.
Choice. Sometimes TMTOWTDI means you have to do some work to figure out where the user is and how to get them out of the puzzle. Makes script-driven support idiots harder. OTOH, makes scrited recovery tools more possible.
Don't understand this.
Calendaring. There's still not a good answer to MS Outlook in this regard.
No need for a calendar here, but KOffice and KMail are fine with me.
Single-sign-on solutions. I suppose there's an answer lurking in LDAP somewhere. I need to know what it is. Microsoft answers this problem(for MSFT-only networks) pretty well.
Yep, LDAP and NIS. It's a pain in MS world as well and insecure because there is no real user context.
Searching for solutions. In many cases there is an answer. If you can find it. And if you can sort out the conflicting claims of different advisors. Fortunately, comparing solutions is usually pretty low-cost, but it's still a bit of a headache.
Now THIS is a problem - the number of Linux idiots who leave droppings on the web is exponentiating. All we need is a search engine that can filter out spelling and grammar errors, the telltale sign of Linux idiocy.
My own personal annoyance? Linux became politicized when it should have become practical.
-drl
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Post #124,586
11/7/03 9:51:52 AM
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Re: Linux annoyances
\r\n \r\n\tIt's Not Windows?. Get used to it. It's going to be different. In many ways it's better, but there are some things you'll find you have to do differently, or in a very few instances, cannot do. \r\n\t \r\n\r\n The only thing I can't do is make decent PDFs. pstopdf makes horrible output - could be there's a way to tweak it but I don't know how. \r\n \r\n\r\n That's not really what I had in mind. I can [link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/resume.pdf|make PDFs fine]. Its' expectations that GNU/Linux should [link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org/~karsten/XP-screen.png|look] and act just like legacy MS Windows. [link|http://www.softorchestra.com/pipermail/linux-consultants/2003-January/000164.html|That's just not going to happen]. GNU/Linux Is Not Windows. Don't complain because it isn't. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tMultimedia. Proprietary formats and codeci are not supported on Linux...or at least not legally (mplayer hits a lot of them). \r\n\t \r\n\r\n Shrug. Flash is all I care about. \r\n \r\n\r\n Fine for you, Ross, but not sufficient for an organization. So the question becomes: what to do about it (and if you don't give a sh*t, that's fine, but some people do worry about this sort of thing). \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tFonts. Configuration is still a black art. Yes, getting drastically better. But... \r\n\t \r\n\r\n It is? No problems here. Symlink all the ttfs in /windows/fonts, mkfontscale, mkfontdir, SuSEconfig -module fonts. Done. GTK apps are still braindead about fonts - that's your issue. \r\n \r\n\r\n [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/DebianFontGuideForNewbies|Nope]. That's pretty out of date. [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/LinuxFonts|Xfs] does all sorts of goodness with fonts, and pretty easily, but differently from what you describe. xfstt is obsolete. Though its newness means the docs are lagging poorly (hence the [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/|TWIT] page. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tIP filtering. How many !@#$%^&*() methods, with a lifetime of three years each, do we need? \r\n\t \r\n\r\n YaST gets the firewall up in seconds - then tweak it. There are a thousand kernel options for filtering - just make them all modules. \r\n \r\n\r\n Missing the point that GNU/Linux has historically changed its firewalling mechanisms, in a major way, every few years. For managing enterprise firewalls, this is at best a PITA. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tClean "shut down now, by a user" solution. I've seen a half a kilohacks, but there's not a single consistent way to do this. \r\n\t \r\n\r\n If you're REALLY too lazy to su to root for shutdown, make a user called "bye" with a shell /sbin/shutdown. \r\n \r\n\r\n Again: enterprise. Having the power switch issue a shutdown instead of cold-halting the box is the better solution IMO. 'sudo shutdown -h now' doesn't cut it (though a button and a sudo config allowing shutdown is feasible). Or a very fast suspend/resume mode. Most of which GNU/Linux has. The problem is standardization. In an office with 500 desktops, you're going to want a good way to keep people from frying their filesystems, etc. Of course, putting the goodies elsewhere is a good bet -- TLSP. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tRemoveable media. Yes, autofs makes floppies and cdroms a lot easier to deal with, but USB devices still show up at random (ok: inconsistant) places, and odd apps will grab hold of my CD and not let go. \r\n\t \r\n\r\n Hotplugging. SuSEconfig gathers all hotplug information in one place. \r\n \r\n\r\n Details? \r\n\r\n How do you eject a CDROM if your CD player utility holds the device closed and prevents a HW eject? Here you've got issues between GNU/Linux's multi-tasking, device-file model, lack of PC hardware integration (unlike, say, Mac), and other rough edges. How about the migrating location of USB drives? \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tMS Office applications compatibility. It's good and getting better. OOo and SO both do a pretty good job, and last I heard, MS Office 97 runs for the most part under WINE. But neither are totally clean. \r\n\t \r\n\r\n All I need is Word compatibility, and KWord has that. \r\n \r\n\r\n You're not an enterprise. \r\n\r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tWeb accessibility. Some sites restrict browser type, or depend on features only supported on Microsoft platforms. Fairly few, fortunately. \r\n\t \r\n\r\n Konqueror does MSN sites as well as IE. Enough said. \r\n \r\n\r\n This doesn't help when you're hitting sites with explicit Javascript, Active-X, DCOM, or other MSFT-centric type checks. Yes, it's brain death on the site's part, but from their perspective, 95% of web clients work. And from the PoV of an MSFT office switching to an alternative, it will turn up as a bug. Regardless of blame. \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tChoice. Sometimes TMTOWTDI means you have to do some work to figure out where the user is and how to get them out of the puzzle. Makes script-driven support idiots harder. OTOH, makes scrited recovery tools more possible. \r\n\t \r\n\r\n Don't understand this. \r\n \r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tCalendaring. There's still not a good answer to MS Outlook in this regard. \r\n\t \r\n\r\n No need for a calendar here, but KOffice and KMail are fine with me. \r\n \r\n\r\n You're not an enterprise. \r\n\r\n\r\n \r\n \r\n\tSingle-sign-on solutions. I suppose there's an answer lurking in LDAP somewhere. I need to know what it is. Microsoft answers this problem(for MSFT-only networks) pretty well. \r\n\t \r\n\r\n Yep, LDAP and NIS. It's a pain in MS world as well and insecure because there is no real user context. \r\n \r\n\r\n Details? \r\n --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #124,593
11/7/03 10:22:37 AM
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Re: Linux annoyances
Did I say I expect Linux to be Windows? I almost never boot Windows - a couple of days ago I did, and it prompted me to accept the change to standard time :)
What multimedia formats are crucial to business that can't be handled by Linux tools? For example, on of my favorite sites is www.apolloarchive.com, lots of multimedia and all of it works in Linux.
Again about fonts - I've been using freetype2 and Xft since X 4.0 with patches. SuSE does not install a font server. Fonts are easy with applications that use them sanely - that is, Qt apps. On my spiff laptop with perfect fonts, Mozilla still looks like crap because it's compiled against an outdated freetype - this is a GTK issue.
Filtering moved into the kernel, the sane option - this involved a period of adjustment but it's over now. Greg has the scripts for a bottom up config - but SuSEconfig makes it easy.
You can compile the kernel to do a shutdown on a press of the power button - any modern machine will have an acpi BIOS capable of this.
Ejecting CDs - I've never attempted it but autofs should be able to automount and unmount CDs. The SuSE desktop comes with active icons (as in OS/2) that allow right-click/eject. I just type "eject" at a console prompt. But, I wonder if it's possible to sense a press of the CD eject button...
Hotplugging - all devices that are dynamic - which in practice means drive bays, USB devices, PC cards, and network interfaces - are funneled through Linux hotplug. This is a bitch to set up by hand but it's already done in the SuSE system configuration. After that it's a simple matter of assigning start modes for hardware - manual or hotplug. See "linux-hotplug" on SourceForge (admittedly a WIP). The key point is - you don't assign hotplug to individual devices, rather, classes of devices.
What requirements do "enterprises" have that can't be handled by KOffice and OpenOffice.org? You've fallen under the spell of MSOffice.
I have only one website that consistently causes me headaches - the Domino-based stltoday.com (butt-slow). I never encounter issues with Active-X and other MSisms. I have Javascript enabled but am fearless because those scripts can't hurt my user-context-enabled OS. I think Javascript is just a fact of web-life and you might as well enable it. The point here - I have next to zero issues surfing with Konqueror and I don't need the entire KDE environmen to do it.
I can't provide an LDAP and NIS tutorial here but you can find one here;
[link|http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LDAP-HOWTO/|http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LDAP-HOWTO/]
[link|http://www.unav.es/cti/ldap-smb-howto.html|http://www.unav.es/c...ap-smb-howto.html]
[link|http://quark.humbug.org.au/publications/ldap_tut.html|http://quark.humbug....ons/ldap_tut.html]
As LDAP develops it will gradually replace the functions in the older NIS user synchronization. With communication over ssh it's as secure as your local machines are secure. It seems easier to use and comprehend than AD by a long stretch, and it isn't burdened by NDIS domains.
If you don't need all that and just want single logons in a Linux network, or among a group of servers, use NIS.
-drl
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Post #124,599
11/7/03 11:01:23 AM
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Re: Linux annoyances
Again about fonts - I've been using freetype2 and Xft since X 4.0 with patches. SuSE does not install a font server. Fonts are easy with applications that use them sanely - that is, Qt apps. On my spiff laptop with perfect fonts, Mozilla still looks like crap because it's compiled against an outdated freetype - this is a GTK issue. Ross, you keep saying this, and it's bollocks every time. Please stop. QT and GTK handle fonts in EXACTLY THE SAME WAY. If SuSE can't ship a correctly compiled Mozilla, that's a SuSE QA issue. It's nothing to do with (a) Mozilla or (b) GTK. You can compile the kernel to do a shutdown on a press of the power button - any modern machine will have an acpi BIOS capable of this. Agreed. I've found the ACPI support in 2.6 to be somewhat more reliable than the equivalent in 2.4. Laptops that would fail to come out of suspend under a 2.4 kernel do so correctly under 2.6. Ejecting CDs - I've never attempted it but autofs should be able to automount and unmount CDs. The SuSE desktop comes with active icons (as in OS/2) that allow right-click/eject. I just type "eject" at a console prompt. But, I wonder if it's possible to sense a press of the CD eject button... Take a look at Knoppix for the all-singing, all-dancing removable-media-fest, including USB keys and floppies. What requirements do "enterprises" have that can't be handled by KOffice and OpenOffice.org? You've fallen under the spell of MSOffice. Simple. Shared calendaring and contacts. Workflow applications. I can't provide an LDAP and NIS tutorial here but you can find one here; [link|http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LDAP-HOWTO/|http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/LDAP-HOWTO/] [link|http://www.unav.es/cti/ldap-smb-howto.html|http://www.unav.es/c...ap-smb-howto.html] [link|http://quark.humbug.org.au/publications/ldap_tut.html|http://quark.humbug....ons/ldap_tut.html] As LDAP develops it will gradually replace the functions in the older NIS user synchronization. With communication over ssh it's as secure as your local machines are secure. It seems easier to use and comprehend than AD by a long stretch, and it isn't burdened by NDIS domains. LDAP is a *bastard* to implement; the tools you get with Linux for managing it are shit. If you don't need all that and just want single logons in a Linux network, or among a group of servers, use NIS. I'd agree, but with the caveat that NIS is not trivial to implement or administer.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #124,601
11/7/03 11:21:56 AM
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Re: Linux annoyances
Many, many GTK apps, including some I use all the time (mozilla, scilab, xephem, xmms, etc.) are compiled against a copy of GTK that uses the obsolete font renderer freetype1. I have Mozilla 1.2 up right now and it looks shitty. I have gtk2 and freetype2 but the application is not using them. It is not a trivial undertaking to move an app from gtk1/freetype1 to the modern versions.
-drl
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Post #124,603
11/7/03 11:43:25 AM
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Mozilla 1.2?
Jesus, Ross. That's only 3 point-releases behind. I'm currently running Mozilla Debian Package 1.5-2. Get up to speed.
-YendorMike
[link|http://www.hope-ride.org/|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
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Post #124,608
11/7/03 11:54:24 AM
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Re: Mozilla 1.2?
I've been planning on it, but it's a huge download over a dialup line.
How big is the source code?
-drl
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Post #124,620
11/7/03 12:27:57 PM
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Re: Mozilla 1.2?
[link|http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/mozilla/releases/mozilla1.5/src/|See for yourself].
-YendorMike
[link|http://www.hope-ride.org/|http://www.hope-ride.org/]
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Post #124,624
11/7/03 12:30:47 PM
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Talk to me
I have a DSL and a CDR drive. I could possibly burn you a copy of the latest Mozilla packages and whatever else your dial-up cannot handle.
Shoot an email at ngking at sbcglobal.net and we can arrange a time to meet and drop the CDR off or I can mail it to you.
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #124,626
11/7/03 12:40:54 PM
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Re: Talk to me
I'll come pick it up and we can hang for a few.
When's a good time to meet you? There are boatloads of things I need and can't download!
It'll be nice getting out. Today would be great.
Send directions to antimatter33 (splat) yahoo (spot) com
-drl
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Post #124,636
11/7/03 1:42:39 PM
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I'll send you some email
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #124,640
11/7/03 2:10:40 PM
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Never been an issue.
apt-get handled all that for me.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #124,645
11/7/03 2:16:51 PM
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Re: Never been an issue.
How does apt know which version of GTK an app got compiled under?
-drl
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Post #124,646
11/7/03 2:37:17 PM
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I don't care how.
It does. That's all that matters.
The dependency checking and version management in Debian are unsurpassed. It's much better than SuSE (yes, I've used both extensively). It Just Works.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #124,647
11/7/03 2:50:57 PM
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I don't doubt that apt is good
rpm works too, but I'm sure apt is "better".
I'd still like to know how it knows what version etc. etc.
Does it look in the binary?
-drl
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Post #124,648
11/7/03 2:52:49 PM
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Look it up.
I don't care how it works. :-)
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #124,710
11/8/03 3:17:13 AM
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apt and rpm are not equivalent
rpm's equivalent in Debian would be dpkg.
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org/cgi-bin/dwww?type=man&location=/usr/share/man/man8/dpkg.8.gz|http://guildenstern....an/man8/dpkg.8.gz]
(Did I mention also that Debian's documentation tools kick the living bahoomies out of everyone else's?)
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #124,689
11/7/03 10:47:19 PM
11/8/03 12:22:09 AM
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How does it know? Debian packaging infrastructure.
An Irishman was asked to describe the greatest invention in civilization. After thinking for a few moments, he said "The Dewar flask" (Thermos bottle to Yanks). "Really," said the interviewer, "and why is that?". "Well", says the Irishman, "she keeps the hot things hot, ana she keeps the cold things chilled". "Yes, yes," says the interviewer, "we all know that". "Aye," says the Irishman, "but how does she know?". \r\n\r\n In the case of apt, one word: [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/|Policy]. Specifically: [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-binary.html#s3.5|3.5 Dependencies] \r\n\r\n \r\nEvery package must specify the dependency information about other packages that are required for the first to work correctly. \r\n\r\nFor example, a dependency entry must be provided for any shared libraries required by a dynamically-linked executable binary in a package. \r\n\r\nPackages are not required to declare any dependencies they have on other packages which are marked Essential (see below), and should not do so unless they depend on a particular version of that package. \r\n\r\nSometimes, a package requires another package to be installed and configured before it can be installed. In this case, you must specify a Pre-Depends entry for the package. \r\n\r\nYou should not specify a Pre-Depends entry for a package before this has been discussed on the debian-devel mailing list and a consensus about doing that has been reached. \r\n\r\nThe format of the package interrelationship control fields is described in [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html|Declaring relationships between packages, Chapter 7]. \r\n \r\n\r\n Dependencies are specified as packages, not as files. \r\n\r\n Packages which incorrectly specify their dependencies -- to the point of naming the wrong version of a package, or overspecifying the version (restricting to a narrower range than is actually allowable), is a serious bug. A package with a serious outstanding bug filed against it won't be included in the stable release (it can however be in the unstable release). \r\n\r\n Package maintenance is described in the [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/|Debian New Maintainers' Guide]. The [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-dreq.en.html|structure of the 'control' file] is covered here. Note that line 10 of the control file, as detailed, includes an automated first-pass population of the "Depends" field with an automated utility. As with many other aspects of Debian, there are automated tools to assist in build and QC practices (shlibs:Depends). This is typical of the general practice in Debian. There is a contract, policy guides, technical direction and tools, selection processes, social reinforcement, and open bugtracking, all of which contribute to the quality of the project as a whole. \r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n- [link|http://www.debian.org/social_contract|Debian Social Contract] specifies overall goals and committments of the project.
\r\n\r\n- [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/|Debian Policy] states the rules under which package maintainers must operate.
\r\n\r\n- The [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/|Debian Developer's Reference] and [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/index.en.html|Debian New Maintainer's Guide] provide detailed guidance and reference tools for maintainers.
\r\n\r\n- Several tools and packages ([link|http://packages.debian.org/stable/utils/dpkg-dev.html|dpkg-dev],\r\n[link|http://packages.debian.org/stable/devel/dh-make-perl.html|dh-make],\r\n[link|http://packages.debian.org/stable/devel/debhelper.html|debhelper],\r\n[link|http://packages.debian.org/stable/devel/devscripts.html|devscripts], and others listed in [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-start.en.html|DNMG -- Getting started The Right Way] automate parts of the build and packaging process.
\r\n\r\n- Maintainers are selected through [link|http://www.debian.org/doc/developers-reference/ch-new-maintainer.en.html|an application and sponsorship process]. It's slow and thorough, but has been the cause of some friction.
\r\n\r\n- Maintainers are required to participate in the [link|http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/|debian-devel] mailing list. This is a high-traffic, high-signal list in which pretty much everything of significance to Debian is discussed.
\r\n\r\n- The [link|http://bugs.debian.org/|Debian Bugtracking System] (BTS) tracks feedback and bugs (from wishlist to severe) on packages. It's open to anyone for submissions (which means that spam to the BTS itself is a significant problem) and review. Debian's bugs are open to all to see -- the project doesn't hide its problems.
\r\n\r\n \r\n\r\n No wonder [link|http://www.debian.org/News/weekly/1999/14/|Neal Stephenson digs Debian]. The man is all about technology, social groups, tribe, and evolution. \r\n\r\n The result is that Debian manages to keep a loose-knit organization of over 1,000 package maintainers, scattered around the globe, maintaining over 13,500 packages, in a distribution which manages a stable release every 1.5 - 2 years, with a very high level of quality. \r\n\r\n Debian stable [link|http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2003/debian-project-200304/msg00104.html|release dates]: \r\n\r\n \r\n- Debian GNU/Linux 0.93R6 Oct 26, 1995
\r\n- Debian GNU/Linux 1.1 ``buzz'' Jun 17, 1996
\r\n- Debian GNU/Linux 1.2 ``rex'' Dec 12, 1996
\r\n- Debian GNU/Linux 1.3 ``bo'' Jun 5, 1997
\r\n- Debian GNU/Linux 2.0 ``hamm'' Jul 24, 1998
\r\n- Debian GNU/Linux 2.1 ``slink'' Mar 9, 1999
\r\n- Debian GNU/Linux 2.2 ``potato'' Aug 15, 2000
\r\n- Debian GNU/Linux 3.0 ``woody'' Jul 19, 2002
\r\n \r\n\r\n That's the sort of thing [link|http://opensource.mit.edu/papers/omahony.pdf|you might even expect a Stanford Management Science and Engineering PhD candidate to write a thesis about]. \r\n\r\n So that's how Debian knows. \r\n\r\n Edits: fixed links. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
Edited by kmself
Nov. 7, 2003, 10:56:18 PM EST
Edited by kmself
Nov. 8, 2003, 12:22:09 AM EST
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Post #124,692
11/7/03 11:28:03 PM
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Thanks, very informative
-drl
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Post #124,708
11/8/03 2:22:38 AM
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thanks for the link to Siobhan's paper
I'm doing a presentation on OSS and its use/effect in education for my education and technology class. Her paper has some great information.
Say 'hi' for me next time you see her. :-)
Have fun,
Carl Forde
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Post #124,702
11/8/03 1:31:08 AM
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That's a SuSE issue.
They're shipping ancient versions of software.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #124,704
11/8/03 1:34:41 AM
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Also...
...apt-get install mozilla-xft
oops, you're running SuSE.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #124,622
11/7/03 12:28:41 PM
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Linux is not Windows
I don't want Linux to be like Windows, but I do expect Linux to get easier to use and configure to attract Windows users over to it. A lot of modern OSes have features that make using the OS easier, like Mac OSX, BeOS, AmigaOS, and of course Windows. Like automatically creating icons that launch programs, add and remove program GUIs, Hardware Device Manager GUIs, Printer Manager GUIs, User Manager GUIs, etc.
Like the missing features Linux has, like the application icon creation after installing a program. The feature is just not there, at least in Red Hat. For example Red Hat 9.0 has Mozilla 1.2.1 installed, I download 1.4 and install it, yet the X Menu icons still point to the 1.2.1 versions. Have to manually find the new location of 1.4, and change the icons/launchers to point to it. Have to reinstall or symbolic link the JRE Plug-In for 1.4 so Java can work. This sort of thing scares away potential users, and keeps the PHBs from accepting Linux.
There should be a Linux Add/Remove Program feature with an easy to use GUI built into the OS. It also is a missing feature. RPM works, but RPM can easily mess up the RPM database.
I haven't used Lindows yet, because I haven't been able to afford a copy yet. I wonder how User Friendly they made it?
"Lady I only speak two languages, English and Bad English!" - Corbin Dallas "The Fifth Element"
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Post #124,691
11/7/03 11:23:37 PM
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Re: Linux is not Windows
\r\nA lot of modern OSes have features that make using the OS easier...Like automatically creating icons that launch programs...\r\n \r\n\r\n Debian (and Debian-based distros such as Xandros, Progeny, and Lindows) handle this through the 'menu' system. New pograms added through APT are automatically added to system menus. Third-party programs which are menu-aware can similarly use this mechanism. Result: you don't en up with system menus having null entries (a menu entry with no program behind it) and largely every GUI program adds itself to the system menus. This works across all window managers. From twm to GNOME. \r\n\r\n \r\n...add and remove program GUIs...\r\n \r\n\r\n Debian: [link|http://www.nongnu.org/synaptic/|Synaptic]. \r\n\r\n \r\nHardware Device Manager GUIs\r\n \r\n\r\n This one I'll grant you somewhat. Note that in the case of Linux, it's often easier to autodetect and autoconfigure hardware, as the [link|http://packages.debian.org/unstable/utils/kudzu.html|kudzu] tool from Red Hat. Hardware support in Linux is generally almost easier than with Windows: if the device is supported, it leaves a signature somewhere which can be detected, and the appropriate kernel module then autoloaded. And given that predicate, the fundamental problem of writing a GUI wrapper around the identifyication of recognized and unrecognized hardware is not all that difficult. \r\n\r\n Printer Manager GUIs \r\n\r\n [link|http://www.cups.org/|CUPS]. Can use some improvement, but fundamentally works. \r\n\r\n User Manager GUIs \r\n\r\n For better or worse (mostly worse): [link|http://www.webmin.com/|webmin]. The problem is: all of these tools are fundamentally limiting and information hiding. For many users, this is sufficient. For serious administration, it has all the same problems that the NT and kin's GUI admin has: you end up with a class of administrators which is fundamentally ignorant of what's going on behind the scenes. For this reason, while I am not opposed to such tools being available, I vastly prefer that the primary config tools be clear, well-defined, documented, sane, configuration files. \r\n\r\n etc. \r\n\r\n Got that: /etc ;-) \r\n\r\n \r\nLike the missing features Linux has, like the application icon creation after installing a program. The feature is just not there, at least in Red Hat. For example Red Hat 9.0 has Mozilla 1.2.1 installed, I download 1.4 and install it, yet the X Menu icons still point to the 1.2.1 versions. Have to manually find the new location of 1.4, and change the icons/launchers to point to it. Have to reinstall or symbolic link the JRE Plug-In for 1.4 so Java can work. This sort of thing scares away potential users, and keeps the PHBs from accepting Linux.\r\n \r\n\r\n Note that this is just one of many weaknesses of RH and RPM-based distros which become clear once you've had experience with a policy-based distribution. Given policy, you can dictate how packages interact, and you can create functionality (eg: the Debian menus system) based on those interactions, and require that it work. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #124,589
11/7/03 9:57:21 AM
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www.google.com/search?q=fontconfig
Nuff said.
Braindead? My hairy arse.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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