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New Re: Are specialized application servers a good idea?
Multiple physical layers are useful in some instances, but not for all types of apps or environments.

For example, I've currently half a dozen sites that achieve sub-second response time to 1-2 second response time (depending on the SLA) using multiple physical layers. Leaving the GUI/static content on one layer seems to work just fine while calls for dynamic content can be made when needed (yes, there is some overhead with these calls). The middle tier (no EJBs) is tightly tuned to return results rapidly. The back-end data layer is also tuned for fast results. In this particular case, the physical split allows each layer to be individually fine tuned for performance. It also helps to have high-end hardware in the mix.

In this particular example, there are also other benefits. All three physical layers are clustered between separate physical locations. The front end has clusters in two locations, the middle tier and backend also have clusters in two locations. This allows for on-the-fly load balancing and automated fail-over.

Also, additional firewalling can be done between layers to increase security.

The major down side I've seen thus far is that this type of arrangement is very complex to manage. More than once I've seen a component version change on one layer produce major problems. It is also very difficult to QA site changes to one or more layers in this type of architecture. Sites that do this definitely need a beefy QA environment.

Perhaps this type of architecture is best for high-end sites or highly transactional environments that require added security and grainular high availability to meet compliance regulations (otherwise overkill)???

My $.02,
-Slugbug
New Speaking of EJBs... (new thread)
Created as new thread #123696 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=123696|Speaking of EJBs...]
Regards,

-scott anderson

"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
New That makes sense
Multiple physical layers should provide more security, and the ability to have multiple physical mirrors can give reliability guarantees that you can't get with a simpler system.

However I would bet that getting this to work costs huge overhead in terms of equipment and skillsets just to make it happen. I would also bet that the performance (both latency and throughput) won't come near what the same investment could do with a simpler architecture.

Data point. eToys in 2000 managed to serve over 2 million pages per hour in a heavily database-driven site using just a few dozen commodity Intel machines for webservers. (I don't know what the database was.) With today's hardware they would probably need only a handful. Perrin was instrumental in redeveloping the site to hit that load(1), and detailed notes on how he did it are [link|http://www.perl.com/pub/a/2001/10/17/etoys.html|here].

However an explicit design tradeoff was that overall site uptime and responsiveness is more important than perfect transactional semantics. If the webserver that you are being served from goes down, your current shopping basket gets lost. (If, however, you had made a purchase, you can bet that that purchase was securely recorded...) This means that you can cache certain kinds of data on the local webserver, removing pressure on the database and massively improving your potential scalability.

By the time you have purchased a few beefy machines in a failover configuration, and purchased a QA environment, I simply don't see how you could be near their same cost point. And the performance that eToys had in 2000 is still more than sufficient for the vast majority of companies today. Including plenty that swear that they must have many physical layers to get the performance that they need.

Cheers,
Ben

1. A note for Karsten, Perrin ripped out the code that your former employer started with as a load of shite.
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Database was...

MySQL, initially.

\r\n\r\n

Later replaced with Oracle. Which Rob dissed thoroughly. Be interested to know Perrin's take on that -- better or worse or just different? Scuttlebut was that Oracle didn't like the fact that one of the top ten ecommerce sites wasn't running O.

\r\n\r\n

Perrin wouldn't have been the only person to call it that either, regarding the other comment. OS/Z was in the process of shedding most of the original code as well. Definitely not built for collaborative development, nor was the initial developer minded to cooperate.

\r\n\r\n

Edits: name fix

--\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
Expand Edited by kmself Nov. 2, 2003, 11:18:42 PM EST
New Um, you have his name way wrong
Perrin. Not Pippin.

You could always email him at perrin@elem.com and ask. Or I could ask when I see him next. (I think that he is coming out in a month or so.)

But as for Oracle vs MySQL, some better people to ask are [link|/forums/render/user?username=broomberg|broomberg], [link|/forums/render/user?username=slugbug|slugbug] and the like. Perrin was mainly concerned with the website/programming side. He isn't a DBA, nor does he pretend to be one, so he probably doesn't have strong opinions on that.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Wups, fixed. DB...

MySQL was principally "just a data store". There was relatively little reliance on higher-end database functions, and performance was at a premium. The claim was also that transactional integrity was provided through OM itself.

\r\n\r\n

Then again, I keep my salt-sack open when considering Rob's dictums. I've caught him at several times at really major fibs. E.g.: Linux doesn't do networking at runlevel zero, Molar volume is a (practically) constant number of molecules of gas at constant T & P. Given his background -- graduate biology w/ significant chemistry, and years of Linux programming and admin -- he really should have known these. Worst, he was insistant on being wrong.

--\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
New i.e, Jordan, not Tolkien. But, hey, it's easy...
...to get your Fantasy writers mixed up, if you're not too much into that kind of stuff. :-)

[Note for the uninitiated: Perrin is one of the main characters in Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series, whereas Pippin, IIRC, is one of the hobbits in "the Ring".]


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Resident [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=119792|zIWETHEY pilkunnussija]
New True, but Perrin is his real name
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Really? Kewl! First or last?
And no, even if it were his given name, I'm not implying he'd have to be named for the character in Jordan's novels -- if nothing else, he'd have to be pretty precocious, as the first in the series appeared in (IIRC) 1989, and the series didn't reach greater fame until around the second or third book, a bit into the '90s.


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Resident [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=119792|zIWETHEY pilkunnussija]
New First
"good ideas and bad code build communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
     Are specialized application servers a good idea? - (ben_tilly) - (18)
         Only comment would be on a comment - (FuManChu) - (1)
             Down that path lies madness - (ben_tilly)
         Re: Are specialized application servers a good idea? - (dshellman) - (1)
             It wasn't meant to be insightful - (ben_tilly)
         I think they are used incorrectly - (tuberculosis) - (2)
             Agree on most points.... - (gdaustin) - (1)
                 RE: OO Web Tool - (tuberculosis)
         Re: Are specialized application servers a good idea? - (slugbug) - (9)
             Speaking of EJBs... (new thread) - (admin)
             That makes sense - (ben_tilly) - (7)
                 Database was... - (kmself) - (6)
                     Um, you have his name way wrong - (ben_tilly) - (5)
                         Wups, fixed. DB... - (kmself)
                         i.e, Jordan, not Tolkien. But, hey, it's easy... - (CRConrad) - (3)
                             True, but Perrin is his real name -NT - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                                 Really? Kewl! First or last? - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                     First -NT - (ben_tilly)
         from a support point of view - (boxley)

Don’t look at me in that tone of voice!
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