Stories on Terri Schiavo

Post #122,224 by Another Scott 10/21/03 4:05:43 PM Reply	Stories on Terri Schiavo [link\|http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/auto/epaper/editions/tuesday/news_f349ea29a500f15d000f.html;COXnetJSessionID=1VQs8o1ovvWdDl3Igewp6pWzuCCshBjYCrZlRO0JRSXu8rpLf1ob!659659159?urac=n&urvf=10667663801820.8445376341480094\|Palm Beach Post]. Gov. Jeb Bush extended the agenda of the special session on economic development to include a bill that would give him the authority to order that the feeding tube be reinserted into Terri Schiavo, a Tampa woman who has been in what doctors call a vegetative state since her heart stopped in 1990. vs. [link\|http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/276fpkqk.asp\|The Weekly Standard] Will Terri live or die? That can't be known. But this much is clear: The Schiavo case has changed everything. Our government leaders have been put on notice that tremendous numbers of people in this country are determined to halt the erosion of the sanctity/equality of life ethic in the practice of medicine. The routine practice of dehydrating the cognitively disabled who need a feeding tube--which occurs to the conscious and unconscious alike in all 50 states--is going to receive a badly needed review. The bioethics movement, which has been leading us down this treacherous slope, can no longer expect to pontificate from on high in medical matters of life and death and expect the people to just meekly go along. Has she been in a vegetative state for 13 years, or is she cognitively disabled? No matter where you stand on this debate, I think it's clear that the polar opposites taken in these stories illustrate the importance of getting news from multiple sources. It's astounding to me, but far too common, that people can see the same situation in completely different ways. Cheers, Scott.
Post #122,238 by mmoffitt 10/21/03 4:54:12 PM Reply	This is a sad tale. I worked in healthcare for about, crap, how long? 1977 to 1986. I've seen more than my share of people like Teri. The one case I remember most vividly was a young man, in his early thirties, married, who had a brain stem stroke. He was vegetative for months. After more than a year of not being responsive, his wife came in crying, telling him that she had met some one else. The illness had bankrupted them (long term care in a hospital, being on a vent for more than 6 months, etc. will do that to you). I went into the room after she left. Minutes later, the patient convulsed and sat up in bed. He could not talk, but he could cry. About a month later he was taken off the vent. He began to respond (not verbally), but he could squeeze your hand. He was shipped off to a nursing home, his heart strong, he's probably still there, being fed by some nurses aid with a spoon, wearing diapers, unable to speak but perhaps still able to cry. I will never forget the pain I saw in that unresponsive man's eyes when his wife told him she was marrying some one else. Gives me the creeps to this day. So, tell me, is he better off? I can't say that I know. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #122,246 by Simon_Jester 10/21/03 5:22:12 PM Reply	Actually what's really sad isn't whether or not she's kept alive or not. (Frankly I don't care). But there's a war brewing (in Florida) between the Legislature and the Courts. The bill sent to Bush was designed to be as narrow as possible. It is limited to cases in which the patient is in a persistent vegetative state, has had nutrition and hydration tubes removed and whose family has challenged the removal. [...] During a two-hour debate in the House, several Democrats argued that the Constitution did not allow the Legislature to give governors the power to overrule the courts. \t \t \ufffdThis bill so oversteps our role it ... turns democracy on its head,\ufffd Rep. Dan Gelber said. But Republicans said that when judges might be wrong, especially in cases like Schiavo\ufffds, such legislation was desperately needed. \ufffdThe Constitution is supposed to protect the people of this state,\ufffd said Rep. Sandy Murman. \ufffdWho is protecting this girl?\ufffd [link\|http://www.msnbc.com/news/980564.asp?0cv=CA01\| Source ]
Post #122,250 by inthane-chan 10/21/03 5:28:30 PM Reply	And this steams me... ...'cause if this happens to me, I may not get my desire. My wife is under standing orders that, if I'm probably beyond hope, to pull the plug and use me for spare parts, not keep me on the 'tube for 10+ years in the hope that I might wake up some day in some capacity. There's some specific terms on the insurance that work to that effect as well. In that final hour, when each breath is a struggle to take, and you are looking back over your life's accomplishments, which memories would you treasure? The empires you built, or the joy you spread to others? Therin lies the true measure of a man.
Post #122,270 by jbrabeck 10/21/03 6:25:37 PM Reply	But when do you pull the plug? Being responsive, though incapacitated, should you pull the plug? IIRC, she has to be IV fed. everything else is "functioning". Now, if I need a machine to breathe, a machine to clean my blood, a machine to pump the blood, and unresponsive, I'm dead. That's a huge difference from being unable to feed myself. "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever." 1 Peter 1:24-25
Post #122,361 by mmoffitt 10/22/03 11:19:10 AM Reply	One test: Flat line EEG. bcnu, Mikem The soul and substance of what customarily ranks as patriotism is moral cowardice and always has been...We have thrown away the most valuable asset we had-- the individual's right to oppose both flag and country when he (just he, by himself) believed them to be in the wrong. We have thrown it away; and with it all that was really respectable about that grotesque and laughable word, Patriotism. - Mark Twain, "Monarchical and Republican Patriotism"
Post #122,414 by Another Scott 10/22/03 5:27:35 PM Reply	She's reported to be in a PVS. [link\|http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:ZpJ3DBLQbawJ:www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Oasis/2919/pvsdef.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8\|Google Cache]. The distinguishing feature of the persistent vegetative state is an irregular but cyclic state of circadian sleep and wake cycles, unaccompanied by any detectable expression of self-awareness (The Multi-Society Task Force on PVS Part 1 1500). Along with maintaining autonomous functions, such as cardiovascular and renal functions, patients in a persistent vegetative state may be aroused by certain stimuli, opening their eyes if they are closed, changing their facial expressions, or even moving their limbs. Furthermore, they can grind their teeth, swallow, smile, shed tears, grunt, moan, or scream without any reason. Their heads and eyes can follow a moving object or move towards a loud sound (Zeman 796). Yet, these responses have been observed in patients in whom careful study has shown no evidence of awareness. Consistent with a persistent vegetative state is a lack of sustained visual pursuit. Although they may move their eyes, patients in a vegetative state neither fixate on a visual object nor track a moving target with their eyes (The Multi-Society Task Force on PVS Part 1 1500-1501). "A circumstance where somebody could have his eyes open and not see, and not look, and not track, and not use his eyes for the purpose of gathering information about their environment...is hard for many people to understand," said Dr. Stell (personal interview). Positron-emission tomographic (PET scan) studies have shown an average of a fifty percent decrease in metabolic activity in the cerebral cortex and cerebellum of patients in a persistent vegetative state (The Multi-Society Task Force on PVS Part 1 1506). Thus, although these patients may exhibit behavior that appears to be the result of conscious thought and reasoning, these behaviors are merely reflexive and do not indicate awareness. It's a bad situation. I have some worries about the state turning off life support (for various reasons) for people who might recover, but I do not think that Bush and the FL legislature should have intervened in this case. Cheers, Scott.
Post #122,699 by marlowe 10/24/03 11:29:15 AM Reply	You don't care what happens to her? Damn, you're colder than Rhett Butler. What did this poor woman ever do to you? ---------------------------------------------------------------- DEAL WITH IT. Compromise is for suckers. Seeking a middle ground is what led to 9/11. "I do not want to be admired by scumbags and liars and wife beaters. I want to be admired by good and decent, intelligent and just people, and in order to achieve this I need to do things that make me despised by their opposites." - Bill Whittle Never mind all the mass graves. Where's the nerve gas? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #122,454 by boxley 10/22/03 11:26:03 PM Reply	repos love post birth abortion, does this mean the retarded can no longer be put to death? my take is dont starve it, "parts store" OT is it homicide if you snuff her? What if hubby stepped in and said fsck gov she stops sucking air NOW! thanx, bill who has standing orders for a pillow across the nose if I cant wipe my own ass after 30 days on life support. thanx, bill "You're just like me streak. You never left the free-fire zone.You think aspirins and meetings and cold showers are going to clean out your head. What you want is God's permission to paint the trees with the bad guys. That wont happen big mon." Clete questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]

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