ObL's response gives lie...

Post #12,142 by kmself 10/7/01 3:51:19 PM Reply	ObL's response gives lie... ...to the rather popular rumor circulating in Arabian/Muslim states that the WTC/P5 attacks were organized by Israel to prompt a US attack on Muslim states. ObL has tacitly stated that those were his attacks, or at least went forward with his approval. My point: I'm looking for clear heads WRT rumors on all sides. `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #12,146 by Ashton 10/7/01 5:14:17 PM Reply	Recall though: first casualty in every war is Truth. Spin is that which Muricans (and most, now) live by. It permeates everything ever 'reported' (by Corp-owned media). Nothing new re spin through the ages - only technology, all that noise - has made it possible for the sheer magnitude of sound-bites to utterly swamp those small cries for sweet Reason - which are always around somewhere. Remember too - only one US legislator, a black woman - possessed the courage to vote against a blank check for, automatic war. (Just as, only one legislator prevented the impeachment of the first Pres. Johnson. Our standards devolved to 'sex', just recently). Sweet Reason.. is apt to become less and less capable of being extirpated from the building momentum. May the next events prove to be our finest hour and not - (There's hope though: just heard that the C5-As are being loaded for air-drop of necessities, to non-Taliban infested areas of Afgh. Now That is good thinking - this early-on, IMhO.) Ashton
Post #12,153 by gtall 10/7/01 7:07:31 PM Reply	Re: Recall though: first casualty in every war is Truth. Ashton, where to you get this cynical idea that Americans are defined by what the news organizations report? And I very much doubt the Bush administration is influenced in terms of policy by what the media is reporting. You are thinking of the last administration that poked its dick in the air to see which way the wind is blowing. The current climate would have been produced regardless of what spin the news organizations put on it...and I do not detect much spin. Most have been pretty good about reporting Muslim frustrations, airing bin Laden's tirades, giving the Taliban a mouthpiece, etc. I actually am not really a believer that starting the fight this soon is to our advantage. I think we could have waited much longer and spent more time yanking the Taliban around to see if they'd trip over their beards. In my opinion, we are giving bin Laden the war he needs to legitimatize himself. But I'm willing to be convinced that the current action will pay off. It is more likely, however, that no one will be able to tell after it is over whether it would have been worth the trouble to wait. Gerard Allwein
Post #12,156 by deSitter 10/7/01 7:24:26 PM Reply	Disagree I learned from Sherman and Grant. Now that it's on, relentless destruction of everything involved with terrorism, including governments if need be. A general attack on Iraq, Afganistan, and even Syria is in order. I would have preferred avoidance of this situation by skillful statecraft, unfortunately these times are severely depleted of statesmen. Therefore we have most likely brought this on ourselves by repeated and intrenched stupidity - but given the current situation, the only alternative is relentless pursuit of these people until they are erased from memory. As a footnote, I would come down on the assholes in Israel with mighty force of words as well, to wit - you are three steps over the line and our tolerance for your excesses is stretched to breaking. You too can feel out wrath. Behave or suffer.
Post #12,218 by screamer 10/8/01 10:55:00 AM Reply	Yo, dickhead... Cluestick... You write: " I would have preferred avoidance of this situation by skillful statecraft, unfortunately these times are severely depleted of statesmen. Therefore we have most likely brought this on ourselves by repeated and intrenched stupidit" UMMMMM, just exactly what statesmanship would you propose? I mean, the fucking ground in New York where the World Trade Centers once stood is still smoking? Oh and Gee, let's blame the fucking jews for everything, you anti-semitic piece of shit. Hell, Christians and Muslims would most probably get along in piece if it weren't for those damned Jews, right? Why don't we just come out and propose the "final solution" right now? Never mind that according to your and their bible, the Jews are God's chosen people... Makes a lot of sense to me that you would wish to kill them... HMMM, maybe that's why that for centuries the Muslims and Christians have competed to exterminate the Jews the fastest... Good old fashioned jealousy! Take a minute and THINK... Sorry, but where the hell is your head? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,247 by deSitter 10/8/01 12:41:56 PM Reply	Yo..Meathead The WTC is down because we are stupid and lazy, and enshrine stupidity and laziness as virtues. It could have been easily prevented by accurate profiling of people over here on temporary visas, and by effective intelligence gathering with cognizance that it is a dirty game sometimes. But you are too busy thumping your gorilla chest to think clearly. Join the crowd - you have 95% of the "peepul" behind you. Blame the Jews for everything? Hardly. I blame them for thinking God selected them above everyone else, just as I blame the Christians and Moslems for thinking the very same thing.
Post #12,252 by marlowe 10/8/01 12:55:05 PM Reply	Give the Israelis some credit. They have more exeperience dealing with this stuff than we have. We should at least defer to their greater expertise. And most of anti-Semitism is just plain jealousy. They have their faults, just like any other culture. But that's not the real motive behind the hatred. Wipe the terrorists out? Grant and Sherman? "Fiddle dee dee," says bin Laden. But you already know where I stand. I'm a damn Yankee, and damn proud of it. And once that's accomplished, comes the Reconstruction. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #12,255 by deSitter 10/8/01 1:05:42 PM Reply	I Do - or Did. Before their enantiodromic transformation from oppressed into opressors. And I agree, at this point the only option is to conquer these people. This is a simple situation - the main danger is that one of these loonies will set off a nuke in a city of their choosing, bringing on nuclear Armageddon. Therefore at this point the only - terrible - option is to take away everyone's toys by main force - meaning conquering Iraq, Syria, the 'Ghans, and maybe even Pakistan itself.
Post #12,271 by marlowe 10/8/01 1:57:08 PM Reply	So how do we conquer without being, er, "oppressors?" Can't have it both ways. Some people just need oppressing. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #12,273 by deSitter 10/8/01 2:02:13 PM Reply	At This Point, Can't Use Nicey Nice The ultimate goal should be the prevention of nuclear war. Whatever it takes to achieve that aim should be undertaken. If that means backward and unstable regimes - including Israel with their antediluvian religious ideas - must be conquered with extreme prejudice, then so be it. Civilization cannot survive any more political correctness. Bad people must be suppressed and Marshallized.
Post #12,311 by Ashton 10/8/01 5:08:57 PM Reply	Gentlemen! - fighting in The War Room !?
Post #12,312 by marlowe 10/8/01 5:13:17 PM Reply	So how come it's okay for us to oppress Arabs... but it's not okay for Israel to do the same? You've got a serious double standard working here, man. What exactly has Israel done to torque you off besides oppressing some assholes who we both know sorely needed oppressing at any rate? [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html] Sometimes "tolerance" is just a word for not dealing with things.
Post #12,359 by dmarker2 10/8/01 10:14:50 PM Reply	Re: Wot U R suggesting would greatly expand the problem . Re Jews & Israel - can you see the parrallel between the problem the Romans faced & what is occuring there today ? But, the problem is now compounded because there are 2 lots of fanatics in the region & the worst of these fanatics on both sides are tearing each other apart and taking us with them The 3rd Roman solution against Israel was drastic but did it solve the problem - NO !!! just put it on ice for several 100s of years interspersed with pogroms against Jews in many of the countries they settled in. A real fact here too is that apart from a period when Mohammad turned on some Jews, it is the European countries that carried out the worst atrocities against Jews between 10th & 20th centuries. The Arabs haven't been able to refine their methods for slaughtering Jews, yet. Drastic acts to solve delicate problems shows a complete lack of understanding of the problem & condemns all players to further pain. Maybe it buys short term relief but rarely a complete answer. Thankfully we have some apparantly sane people running the US anti-terrorist action. Cheers Doug Marker
Post #12,380 by deSitter 10/9/01 12:40:53 AM Reply	Absolutely I surely see the Roman parallel. And wholeheartedly endorse following it - for what is really coming (assuming we survive) is a new conception of God - not a vengeful God of books - not the realm of Logos - like John - but instead a God inside Man - a God of the heart instead of the mind - equal partners - and this is what the crazies really fear. Since (like Rome) our own society is based on dying ideas, I would expect the main road to survival to involve absorbing the new ideas while the old ones more or less gracefully die - and transform it into a new idea that can sustain us far into the future (about 2100 years as the crow flies). Of course, you cannot possibly understand what I am talking about - only admit this, and I will do my best to explain.
Post #12,383 by dmarker2 10/9/01 2:41:33 AM Reply	Re: I have a perspective on this topic ..... Very brief .... Yes the Jews were acknowledged to have discovered there was only 1 God. The Romans Greeks Huns Vikings etc: etc: still worshiped multiple Gods usually based around seasons & weather. One God was intellectual progress for mankind. Christians took an extension of the one God & added a few relations back in as God's relatives, but extended God into the Trinity so they could include the old world God (the Father) plus the new concept of a mystical spirit. But Christiany split & fought over the divine nature of Jesus & the meaning of the Trinity. Mohammad re-invented the one God and used his vision of God to bring static Arabs & Bedou together. All the above unified God concepts were man's creation and man created God in man's image - this point is lost on most people (totally). There was a purpose to creating God in man's image & it was to do with human superiority over all other forms of life and mens desire to dominate women. Thus the bible & Koran & Torah write in a way that relegates women to the staus of chattel somewhere above the less dominant 'animal' species. The above flawed & archaic ideas of God don't mean that there isn't a 'God' just that we humans still have difficulty in defining God in any meaningful and universal way. We may be entering a period where our scientific advances can enable some among us with insight to define a new more accurate concept of God devoid of the chauvanistic artifacts of history and with a relativity to the world, universe and cosmos, as we have come to understand them / it all. But not withstanding the above monologue am more than interested to read what your own views are Cheers Doug Marker
Post #12,388 by Ashton 10/9/01 3:39:25 AM Reply	Can't resist such a pregnant analysis.. And so surprising to hear it from an Occidental :-\ufffd (Somehow I can't place India as 'Oriental' though.. India is India, re the metaphysical in full panoply. Maybe Occident is also obsolete.) Scholars catalogue the intricacies over entire careers. Joseph Campbell tried to express the origins of all religion in earliest myths, in his popular books. He nicely fills in the blanks - the origins - of much which Christianity presents as original and unique. (That's another forum I think.) Oddly, while 'multiple gods' appear to persist in Hindu variations - these are more for popular consumption, and closer study reveals that Siva = Rama = Vishnu in various forms. (Ganesha, the elephant-looking god, is particularly colorful). The idea of the necessity of destruction before renewal can occur - is apparently understood (and perhaps also - the folly of imagining one would want to physically 'live forever'!) I think that pretty much what you are suggesting as a possible (and desirable) evolution, overcoming of the Western-God wars - has long existed among the more ept in India. Anyone earnestly paying attention has recognized the 'Source' as within - whether called 'the Absolute' or by the subtleties of the Sanskrit names. Simply, the West would be catching up.. if it can and if it will. And if we live long enough. I guess it's ever a phenom of the newcomer to act the adolescent: in religion as elsewhere. My concern would be that nuclear weapons wielded by adolescents (and/or sociopaths) might well bring the experiment to a close quite pre-maturely. Anyway - nice synopsis cum motives; the Father characterization is like war IMhO: history and popular religions are spawned by the winners - most often men, who have ever seized the power. (And in the West, no matriarchies are ever mentioned to school children and 'religion' is always assumed to be something about ~'Christian dogma', at least in US schools.) How in Oz? Cheers, Ashton
Post #12,391 by dmarker2 10/9/01 4:48:59 AM Reply	Re: Isn't India enigmatic - idols & visions ... India produced the Budda - later China's Triptaka went to India to resolve contradictions in the teachings that had emerged in the Chinese translations. But Indian Buddism is steeped in vedic teachings and traditions. I find it so odd that so many Indians fervently worship milk drinking stone staues of Ganesha and yet the most enlightened among India's people are in the forefront of divining the 'inner' God. Their concept can be expanded to include that the inner God can be found in any living thing and in a basic form, any matter. The whole issue of the difference between inorganic matter & living organic matter is still part of the puzzel. Wilhelm Riech's attempts to take one & into the other with the addition of 'Universal Energy' (Orgone), was an intriguing perspective on the life / no life mystery. Still intigues me to this day. I still don't believe any human has succeeded in demostrating this transformation or clearly identifying the missing ingredient that allows one to become the other. It seems amazing that we humans can deduce that every universe is powered by a black hole, but we can't take a mix of inorganic material (soup) & show that it can be made organic (creating life of it). But the man who first can do this and clearly define and scope all ingredients, can surely claim to be a 'God' (the old fashioned type :-). Re religion in Australia - tis so long ago since I went to school It have no real idea what gets taught now other than that teachers must keep their hands off pupils (these days touching pupils for any purpose puts the fear of God into all sorts of people - esp paranoid parents). Cheers Doug
Post #12,393 by Ashton 10/9/01 6:06:38 AM Reply	Re: Isn't India enigmatic - idols & visions ... I think the "walking to the Ganges for water, then some humongous distance back - to pour water over an icon" represents the 'formatory' mindset, present in all populations. Ditto picking out your fav sub-deity for special attention. (Still.. Ganesha is the most compassionate of deities!) Always and everywhere are the 'circles' - with esoteric in the center. Believe it is at the esoteric level only, where the bells & whistles are dispensed with. Such questions as would imagine er transmuting inorganic into organic - creating 'life'? - just wouldn't arise. That would be a Western approach: analyze, induce, synthesize - the expectation of a process to be 'mastered'. Reich could be called a wannabe Western mystic - Orgone as umm phlogiston ? We have a hard time letting go of 'causality' and much else. That's why I don't see it as likely, that we can bridge the gap in mindset: we believe that $$ (and chemical elements) are Real! and that intellect can deduce it all. Words fail in that argument. (Whether or not the historical Jesus made it to India in the 'unchronicled years'? many of his ideas as expressed - preceeded him, there) Oh Well.. There is the concept of 'yugas' (some thousands of years) and this is supposed to be the most 'difficult' one from which to discern, well.. 'Truth'. There are ways (or Ways?) around the dificulty but - again - the noise of technology tends to interfere with following these, for most folk in typical daily situations. (In India today, as well) There have been a few Remarkable sages, in recent years - and with interesting attitudes towards 'seekers' from the West: believe that ~ people who have gone to that much trouble (?) are worthy of attention, while - (actually saying that!) "Indians today can't pay attention either / are lazy". Go figure. (Some English transcriptions of talks are jewels. One in particular, from the Marathi language, is remarkably clear - I'd say erudite in the precision and subtlety of the examples -- almost poetry even in the translation. One can only wonder.. and credit the translator for capturing that which could not possibly come from 'editing') It's always an interesting 'Play'. Ashton
Post #12,412 by Andrew Grygus 10/9/01 10:37:51 AM Reply	Oh, how Judeo-Christian of you. Yes the Jews were acknowledged to have discovered there was only 1 God. The Romans, Greeks Huns Vikings etc: etc: still worshiped multiple Gods usually based around seasons & weather. One God was intellectual progress for mankind. This concept of "one god" is political "progress", not intellectual progress. The Judaic concept of "One Supreme God" was invented to cement an authoritarian and repressive rule by one group over a diverse people. It has been found highly useful by every other repressive authoritarian regime since, thus it's popularity. "Worship" is a Judeo-Christian concept and is alien to paganism. That God should need or desire the worship of humans is a pretty damned stupid idea. It's like you needing the worship of each individual cell in your spleen. It's the height of conceit and an intellectual failure on a massive scale. It places a severe human limit on God. Pagans did not "worship" gods / goddesses, they were fabricated personifications of natural forces. Propitiate? Perhaps. Evoke in ritual and magic to gain a desired end? Absolutely. "Worship"? No. That's a Judeo-Christian concept, and quite defective in my opinion. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,417 by dmarker2 10/9/01 11:03:23 AM Reply	Re: Yo bro - a good clarification Thanks Doug
Post #12,431 by JayMehaffey 10/9/01 11:44:53 AM Reply	Keep in mind also Keep in mind also, there where as many kinds of Paganism as there are types of Christians today, if not more. The gnostic mystery cults in particular where very quick to simply blend whatever local beliefs existed into the outer layers of the cult, making virtually every group slightly different in beliefs and practice. Some of the pagan gnostic cults of the middle east already followed the sort of god inside line of thought that Ashton and deSitter follow today. They eventually evolved in the gnostic Christian cults and then where stamped out by the literalist Christians, who have never been good at tolerating other lines of thought. Jay
Post #12,434 by Andrew Grygus 10/9/01 11:55:54 AM Reply	Indeed yes - Paganism encourages diversity. Christianity was originally far more a child of Paganism (using that term as a blanket to cover all non Judeo-Christian religions) than Judaism, incorporating major concepts from the cult of Isis and Osiris, concepts imported from Persia, and possibly even farther. But none of this supported an authoritarian church, so the rabble rousers tacked on the Old Testament to justify their ambitions. [link\|http://www.aaxnet.com\|AAx]
Post #12,449 by Ashton 10/9/01 1:36:46 PM Reply	The spread has been, as with all things er "helped along" by the evident political desire to corral power (and justify that in a neatly packaged way). Naming a particular celestial Chief Honcho is a 'nice' corollary for submission to the leadership of the local.. Honcho-guy (almost Always a guy, natch) -- umm for our comfort and safety. Isis & Osiris indeed - I like the tree-model a lot better; a more compelling illustration of that mystery we get so massively wrong, so often - love :-) Tiyo Kemosabe... {Mindfucks R'Us}
Post #12,551 by boxley 10/9/01 10:22:57 PM Reply	paganism spreads! legs, but wait that was a long time ago, was it pagans or piegans? mumble, mumble, bikes, colors! Yup Pagans! ]:-> sorry boss couldnt resist thanx, bill What is a user? You mean userid isnt the same as uid?, gid? whats that? I dont understand "ask the requestor to send a non formal email request for ftp access? whaddya mean dean? Halp Iam drowning in Bovine Fecal Matter!!!! Bill
Post #12,572 by deSitter 10/10/01 12:58:36 AM Reply	No It was a recognition that thought - chaotic - is separate from intelligence - ordering. Read Bohm, "Wholeness and the Implicate Order".
Post #12,264 by screamer 10/8/01 1:34:47 PM Reply	Yo, potato head... As far as the WTC, I would agree that we are stupid and lazy, but... How could any rational sentient feeling human being ever consider in their wildest science fiction nightmare that commercial jets full of passengers would be used as bombs? I mean, really. I do understand a little bit about intelligence gathering as well. But, unless we bug everyone's voice and data communications constantly (ala Predator), and use massively parrallel systems (such as are found in NSA)... Oh, I get it, are you advocating a total abandoning of our concept of privacy, reasonable suspicion, probable cause, etc... Should we only worry about guys that are named Abdul or Mohammed? No gorilla chest here partner. Actually a very informed realist (read Ecclesiastes - "a time for war, a time for peace") who knows the military capabilities of the countries in question. Do you doubt the combined might of the US/UK/FR/CAN/GER/RUSSIA/NATO against the poorest and most backward societies on planet - - - MILITARILY SPEAKING --- ? If that's Gorilla chest beating, then don't mess with that gorilla ;-) Look, this country has it's faults, and I have been very vocal in pointing them out in these fora over the years :-) but their is absofuckinglutely nothing you can say that would imply or connote or suggest or that in any way implicates the WTC happened because of anything we did or didn't do. That is intellectual dishonesty. When trying to rationalize an event like this, I guess it's natural to try to blame someone... If I may, Charlie Manson got it in his head that the rich Hollywood elite were the cause of etc... They deserved to die! You may have to substitute the Beatles for Allah in this analogy, but bear with me. The Hollywood elite must have known they would be resented - that nutcases like Mansion were lurking around every bush all the time... They must have had security cameras/bodyguards/etc... So when Manson sent his buddies in to do his dirty work (ala the suicide freaks that were happy to leave the miserable "life" they knew in the Middle East), LaBianca and Tate should have been prepared for what was to come (I mean, it was their fault, right?) And of course, OBL and Manson didn't actually "do" anything... Am I missing something in this analogy? How about our difference of opinion? Now, back to my main point, I don't give a damn what OBL or Charlie Manson thinks about anything. How they "justify it", etc... Who cares? The last comment about the Jews bears serious discussion as the Christian and Muslim attitudes towards them gave us wonderful history such as the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Holocaust, etc... Just one clarification to your statement. I know you are a Christian... Are you saying that the Jews selected themselves to be God's chosen people? That Christ and Mathew and all the other old Jews that you hear about every Sunday selected themselves? Just curious? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,266 by boxley 10/8/01 1:39:43 PM Reply	Uh oh, Chrlie and OBL? Damn I wouldnt of convicted charlie on tate. La bianca was a different story since he went in himself to tie them up. I would have locked his but up on a 3 strikes clause in 68 or as the crime was labeled back then habitual criminal, automatic life. Since OBL doesnt liv here, is not a US citizen etc, we legally should be able to shoot him on sight since he is not a political leader. thanx, bill What is a user? You mean userid isnt the same as uid?, gid? whats that? I dont understand "ask the requestor to send a non formal email request for ftp access? whaddya mean dean? Halp Iam drowning in Bovine Fecal Matter!!!! Bill
Post #12,316 by screamer 10/8/01 5:32:20 PM Reply	LOL!!! By the way, it's a decent comparison? Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,272 by deSitter 10/8/01 1:57:35 PM Reply	Well, I Considered It ..many times. It was obvious. The people at the helm here wanted to build an antimissle defense just a few months ago. It was pointed out that a nuke in a Cessna or a truck would fly well under such a defense. Stupid. More stupidity - apparently some people think we can go into Israel mode security-wise. The only problem with that - we have thousands of times more area to defend and hundreds of good-sized cities with poor defense resources. Not likely unless we devolve into a police state - which seems to be where we are headed. The people who run the show are plain bubba stupid. The current situation is the logical end result of living the lie of political correctness. Immediate actions that should have been commenced on Sept 12 1) Revocation of ALL temporary visas and ejection of their holders, no exceptions 2) Strict racial profiling of all airline passengers 3) Carte-blanche for the CIA and NSA to get down and dirty 4) Ultimatums to Middle East governments that further religious infighting will not be tolerated 5) Enter into a close defensive arrangement with China and Russia as equal partners to enforce civility in the world at gun and bomb-point. 6) Planning for a campaign to collect all nukes from unstable countries, including India and Pakistan if necessary. The most important thing is cooperation with China and Russia. It's ugly but necessary. This means voluntarily renouncing the meaningless position of the world's only "superpower". Of course almost none of this happened or will happen.
Post #12,274 by bepatient 10/8/01 2:07:17 PM Reply	So you want >them< to win. Its our freedom their after. And you want to hand it to them. Kick out all them goddamned foreigners. Anybody named Abdullah is not allowed to fly. CIA and NSA can have absolute authority to monitor every citizen without just cause or even slight suspicion. I'm glas you're not in charge...unfortunately there's senior leadership that seems to think that civil liberties are a "threat to national security"...just like you do. damned sad, if you ask me. You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! _{Laurie Anderson} [link\|mailto:bepatient@aol.com\|BePatient]
Post #12,277 by deSitter 10/8/01 2:22:47 PM Reply	You Missed It Completely I want OUR liberties defended with great vigor. I want to deny them THEIR liberties. I want the CIA and NSA to have the legal authority to interdict assholes all over the globe without even having to think twice. They can't get our freedom unless we hand it to them. Turning ourselves into a police state, where a little old matron with a cooler of Doc Otis has to be searched before entering a stadium, is not my idea of freedom. We have one huge advantage - we are thousands of miles from most of the world assholes. So we eject everyone who can't trace his family to George Washington or Sacajaweia. Case closed, no more worries about mujahedeen on our airplanes. Harsh but necessary. The ejectees are welcome to return to their home states and set up friendly, civilized governments. "No one ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by make the other poor bastard die for his." - GS Patton
Post #12,289 by Arkadiy 10/8/01 3:32:57 PM Reply	Why is America strong? My family came here as immigrants 7 years ago. Yesterday my Mom asked "Why does America think she has enough money to fight this war, and feed Afghanistan, and stand guard in Kosovo, and over Iraq and so on?" And my answer was: because I, and millions of others all came _here_ to earn our living. Kill immigration - kill America.
Post #12,290 by deSitter 10/8/01 3:38:28 PM Reply	Too Bad Sad but true. You don't see grease monkeys and carpet cleaners from Asbury Park flying jetliners into buildings. After things settle down, we can re-evaluate immigration issues. If your guests are burning holes in your carpet, send them home.
Post #12,304 by Arkadiy 10/8/01 4:46:21 PM Reply	Asbury Park? Who are those people from Asbury Park? And, after things settle down, they settle down for good. People who used to bring their hands here will go elsewhere or stay where they are. USA will become just another Old World in a new place.
Post #12,297 by gtall 10/8/01 4:17:34 PM Reply	Re: Well, I Considered It It takes some pretty good distortion to misunderstand a missile defense as being no good because it doesn't stop planes or trucks. A missile defense is just that, a missile defense...but maybe you like having Los Angles targeted by N. Korea, they're a bunch of fun loving guys. Other kinds of delivery we'll work on. You seem to have no shortage of blockades you want to throw up around the U.S. to keep people out. So your blockades won't do squat about missiles, we should have no blockades, right? I don't think you understand Israel, they have their own internal conflict between the religious right and secular left. You see it in their elections. When they feel threatened, the religious right gets the nod. When they think a peace is possible, they move left. Let's not forget the 4 wars the Arabs started to push Israel into the sea. It isn't like Israel is not surrounded by a bunch of people who want to see every last Israeli dead. "1) Revocation of ALL temporary visas and ejection of their holders, no exceptions" So, we won't allow any diplomats, foreign businessmen, etc. in the U.S. And what makes you think if we do this the rest of the world will decide they don't want any of us out there? "2) Strict racial profiling of all airline passengers" Brilliant, how about Armenians...their pretty dark looking, definitely not American. They should be watched too? How about Indians? They look like Pakistanis to us. Gotta watch them too? Come to think of it, Italians and Greeks are pretty swarthy, they could be travelling under fake Iraqi passports. "3) Carte-blanche for the CIA and NSA to get down and dirty" So, if they decide to bump off a few Americans that are getting in the way, this is okay? How about if we let them bump off a few Indians, do we get to feel bad if India allows their counterterrorism experts to knock off a few Americans in this country? "4) Ultimatums to Middle East governments that further religious infighting will not be tolerated" Yup, that's going to work. "Look youse guys, stop fighting and let yer women vote or...or...well, we think of something hideous to do to you". "5) Enter into a close defensive arrangement with China and Russia as equal partners to enforce civility in the world at gun and bomb-point." And China sees itself as an up and coming power, what makes you think they give a flying rat's ass if we get our tail caught in a crack. What's in it for them? Does this mean we get to help the Russkies mop up Chechnya? "6) Planning for a campaign to collect all nukes from unstable countries, including India and Pakistan if necessary." Gee, what a wonderful idea, how come we didn't think of this before. We'll ask these countries to give us their nukes. Lemme guess, they'll ask for a fair swap, we'll take theirs and they'll take ours. There's only, what, 140 Million Pakistanis, do we get to kill them all so we can take their nukes? And then kill them again when they make more. There's roughly a billion Indians. Let's say only a million get pissed off enough to try to stop us. Boy, we'll show them poor bastards that a million dead Indians won't stop us. Gerard Allwein
Post #12,318 by screamer 10/8/01 5:37:47 PM Reply	Heads... You win... I hate getting nasty with ya. It's like fighting my own brother ;-) (which I've been known to do...) . You have no argument with me on any of the points you just made - I agree totally. I still have to disagree about the level of competency at the top though. I just heard that Bush Sr. is extremely involved in this - the strategy, the planning, the implementation... He ain't pretty but he's about the best we got (in the political realm that is) when it comes to getting down and dirty. Of course this is just my opinion and opinions are like.... Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,324 by screamer 10/8/01 6:01:36 PM Reply	Tails, I lose... In regards to the last post, I should add that I agree with you totally the day after the WTC thing happened. Now that I have had time to really think things through (ie, beyond my anger and emotions), I've changed my mind many times... and as Arkadij has stated, we are all immigrants here except for the native Americans (who most probably are Asians that came across the Aleutian Islands...). If you are a Muslim or Christian, we all came from Adam and Eve. If we are ever to REALLY live in peace, we will need to remember this at all times. We are all brothers and sisters on the planet Earth. We of the genus homo species sapien. Including would be terrorists. Two days after this event started, I posted a message in the religious forum asking if there was any place for a religion like the Taliban practice in the modern world. I also posted that I don't know if we'll be able to discriminate between Muslims and Muslim fanatics. It is quite clear that the events of the past few weeks demonstrate that we are capable. Bush is dropping food to the oppressed people at the same time he is dropping bombs on the assholes. I can't say that I am happy about the bombs thing, but it is understandable given the circumstances. And the food thing is a pragmatic war tactic, but I also believe it goes deeper than just trying to convert some very confused people by filling their bellies. I am hopeful that now that the "civilized world" is being allowed to clean house, that many of the injustices that exist in countries that we can't even point out on a map (where our business interests run - See the continent of Africa for example), will be put on the world's radar screen and all the Idi Ahmins and Pohl Potts ad nauseum will be told to quit hurting our fellow human beings... It's a nice dream. And maybe then, just then, people won't have to leave their homelands in search of a "better life". They can find it right where they are. Just a few thoughts, Screamer "Putting the fun back into funatic"
Post #12,183 by Ashton 10/8/01 1:27:48 AM Reply	Similar reservations about timing But then, neither do I (we) know lots of stuff I bloody well hope! the directors know, that we don't.. I don't believe my characterization of our Corporate media is 'cynical'; especiall not so - for anyone noticing the now inexorable trend towards buyouts, mergers and near-monopolization across the board. Soon we may be down to three? "organizations" in pseudo-competition. How many large cities still have more than One daily newspaper of comparable circulation? (10 news-sheets with 1000 circ. don't count, nor are those usually dailies). Yes, you are also right re the poll-driven nature generally, of the C. admin, though 'twould be unfair to imply he possessed no POV. Dunno about you, but I found it often impossible to tell which of his cave-ins to reactionary forces, were just stupid and which -- tactical moves for larger fish to fry. He was very good at confounding the opposition by coopting their mindless slogans for his own [cackle]. IMO End Welfare - get 'em all on $5/hour w/ no childcare or med was an inexcusable cave, and almost transparently intended so shallowly as: "let's really freak out the Troglodytes - by passing our Own Troglodyte bill first". The ~20% of all US children 'below poverty level' were the clear losers in that cynical (talk about cynical! piece of work) Anyway - in the end.. it Was all about sex.. :-\ufffd Ashton
Post #12,158 by Simon_Jester 10/7/01 7:51:32 PM Reply	Of course truth is lost And you think this is NEW? "Remember the Maine"? Hell, I won't even mention most of the spy games that were pulled in WWII, and all of them were lies. Of course Truth suffers.
Post #12,184 by Ashton 10/8/01 1:56:12 AM Reply	Who said 'new'! merely worth remembering, as the "news" comes filtering in. Only individual discrimination of, "who is talking and what does s/he represent" ought to be kept in mind. (I thought the hidden-cam report of the Brit woman, ___ Shah to be actual 'news' for being both current and relevant. Particularly revealing was especially, the fullface of the Taliban rep asking for "funds for an execution site, to free up the UN-built 'sports' stadium" for er other games. His concluding, "we have our work to do" - summed up well enough.) A.

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