Post #120,878
10/10/03 10:55:06 PM
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There are pockets
in Brazil (where Jecel is from), Argentina has a group called SUGAR (Smalltalk Users Group ARgentina), Stephane Ducasse is taking the monastic approach recommended in Berman's [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039332169X/qid=1065840435/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6283439-7373534?v=glance&s=books|Twilight of American Culture], which is to say he is contacting authors and publishers of out of print books about Smalltalk and convincing them to release them freely. He maintains a directory of free out of print material about Smalltalk. Smalltalk is doing fairly well in Europe. I'm also told that its actually growing a bit (according to the people who maintain it a Cincom).
Of course a key issue is that the big companies have everything to lose by not supporting the status quo. All of the popular OS's are written in C or C++. The Linux crowd, Microsoft, Apple, Intel, Motorola, all have a huge interest in maintaining the current model. I expect most of us are familiar with the Tucker story. Getting funding will be virtually impossible.
Its not hopeless, but the change would have to be disguised as something else - not a "computer".
Tricky.
In Java, you can't escape the creepy feeling.
--James Gosling
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Post #120,893
10/11/03 4:28:12 AM
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Maybe we need a half-way.
Essentially something that is tuned for a non-C/C++ language but with some concessions to C/C++.
Wade.
Is it enough to love Is it enough to breathe Somebody rip my heart out And leave me here to bleed
| | Is it enough to die Somebody save my life I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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Post #120,984
10/12/03 11:46:14 AM
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Wasn't that the original guiding force for Java?
jb4 Boy I'd like to see those words on a PR banner behind [Treasury Secretary John] Snow at the podium: Jobs and Growth: Just Wait. John J. Andrew, unemployed programmer; see jobforjohn.com
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Post #120,901
10/11/03 5:50:16 AM
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Sad reminder of Berman___[Twilight of American Culture] (new thread)
Created as new thread #120900 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=120900|Sad reminder of Berman___[Twilight of American Culture]]
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Post #120,908
10/11/03 10:38:54 AM
10/11/03 10:46:23 AM
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Isn't that where we're going anyway????
I think most of the growth from an industry perspective will probably BE outside PC's for the next few years.
Here are some of my predictions:
1. Desktop sales will fall precipitously as notebooks become the predominant computing source. Most people like to take their computers with them. If a standard monitor/speaker/network/keyboard/mouse cradle could be build for all notebooks and PDAs, I could even see a situation where you carry around all your computer work on a PDA, then "plug in" in one of the those standard cradles. Your certificate in the PDA would tie you in to the "net" (hopefully not .NET) and connect you with your work/home/whatever server. Your standard config is loaded on the PDA and you can work anywhere one of these cradles exists.
2. Software sales will also die on the vine because of sales of services. Most companies would rather rent software than own it, unless it's free. If maintenance on BEA WebLogic or DB2 is 20% to 25% of the purchase price EVERY YEAR (and it is or more), then I think most companies would rather buy a service, and someone else pay for that. It also fits with the SLA, service agreement, sue for non-compliance world we currently live in.
3. Finally, there is more and more thought that computers should be "invisible", just like electric power. They should just "fit in" to whatever someone naturally does. This is especially true among younger people. There is nothing special about computers, the "specialness" of them is gone. With that thought, I can see more and more that people just use them for what they need. They care less and less about Windows and more and more about doing what they need to do. I think Windows isn't Microsoft's premier brand. It's Office! Word and Excel documents pretty much rule the marketplace and probably will for the next 100 years.
4. With that, I think places where Small-talk architecture fits, in graphic interaces, in heirarchical structures, in fast development/deployment cycles, Small-Talk makes sense, and is probably light years ahead of even Java (which IMHO is MUCH BETTER than C/C++, with respect the amount of time it takes to build something). Most companies are very afraid of missing their market window of opportunity. Thus, they like the rapid deployment aspects of Java, Python, PHP, and even SmallTalk. I think most of these languages can do 80-90% of the computing, with C/C++ doing a much smaller percentage than it does today. The problem is that a manager/director who did it in C/C++ doesn't want to give up his "power" in the structure to do it in another language he doesn't understand.
5. The younger developers of the new generation coming online will have to take the industry from C/C++ to Python, PHP, Squeak, SmallTalk from C/C++ Java, just like my generation took us from mainframe COBOL to C, then C++, then Windows, then Java. I think as the productivity numbers become proven, first developers, then companies will change languages.
But, that's part of what I love about this industry. I started in mainframe COBOL and Assembler, with some microcomputer ( Lotus 1-2-3, Paradox, BasicA, Turbo Pascal) skills. Then I learned C and C++, then Windows, then Unix, then relational databases, then Tuxedo middleware, then Java.
Now, I'm at a place where I'm back doing C/C++ (and hating it), but making a living until I can do something more interesting. I just hope (SERIOUSLY) that our industry hasn't calcified to the point where things can't change anymore, and where companies won't let you learn. If we get there, then I'll have to find something more interesting to do.
Glen Austin
Edited by gdaustin
Oct. 11, 2003, 10:46:23 AM EDT
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Post #120,917
10/11/03 1:13:29 PM
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We're going nowhere
The industry has begun to calcify. Its getting to be more variations on variations on variations on copies of the same tired themes. What's the latest thing in computing? What's new about it? I just read the struts specification. All I can say is "what the fuck?". About a dozen pages of xml, html, java, just to put up a simple FORM? This is progress? Its virtually impossible to initiate a new paradigm at this point. Notebooks are just miniaturized desktops. Nothing new there. They still run the same awkward software. The PDA's are going to be overrun by desktop apps - notice how the tablet PC takes the first ungainly flop onto the beach. The very beach defined in the original [link|http://www.honco.net/os/kay.html|Dynabook] vision. The systems should shift to media centricity and simulation. Something like [link|http://oxygen.lcs.mit.edu/videos/sketching.mpeg|this] (warning - long but very cool mpeg download) should become ubiquitous. With that, I think places where Small-talk architecture fits, in graphic interaces, in heirarchical structures, in fast development/deployment cycles, Small-Talk makes sense, and is probably light years ahead of even Java (which IMHO is MUCH BETTER than C/C++, with respect the amount of time it takes to build something). Most companies are very afraid of missing their market window of opportunity. Thus, they like the rapid deployment aspects of Java, Python, PHP, and even SmallTalk. I think most of these languages can do 80-90% of the computing, with C/C++ doing a much smaller percentage than it does today. Actually, what Jecel is saying is that buy completely eliminating your existing biases about what hardware does, you can kick C/C++'s ass with a fully dynamic programming language. The only reason we don't is inertia (which as you know, is a function of mass, and the mass of C/C++/Java like languages grows daily). IOW, fuck the OS, build a machine that supports collaboration of objects directly. Then build objects that work on their own and some infrastructure that lets authors build collaborations easily. The younger developers of the new generation coming online will have to take the industry from C/C++ to Python, PHP, Squeak, SmallTalk from C/C++ Java, just like my generation took us from mainframe COBOL to C, then C++, then Windows, then Java. I think as the productivity numbers become proven, first developers, then companies will change languages. Thats evolution. Never happen. Revolution is what's needed. More importantly, the minds of our youth are being poisoned in school by "educators" that get paid to perpetuate the current state of affairs. Its downright depressing. This is what I *hate* about this industry. The whole thing is a cliche.
In Java, you can't escape the creepy feeling.
--James Gosling
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Post #120,942
10/11/03 6:55:50 PM
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Speaking as a youth-poisoning educator
I have to agree with Todd.
Our school appears to be turning into a vendor-run certification mill, except that we're more expensive and take longer.
On the other hand, we *are* a for-profit school and thus feel obligated to give industry what they think they want. (Thus perpetuating the cycle, of course.)
Tom Sinclair
"Man, I love it when the complete absence of a plan comes together." - [link|http://radio.weblogs.com/0104634/|Ernie the Attorney]
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Post #120,954
10/11/03 8:36:33 PM
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Thank you. That fits.
As an obv IT outsider, but at least one who has been involved from the CDC-6600,7600 PDP-8 days - with some nose rubbing into the basics:
I see little difference between..
[THEN] When first PDP-8 arrived, and I said, hmmm - think I'll play with that (while folks tinkered with the accelerator pieces during a shutdown) - and got a simple problem: "read this BCD tape, please"...
And I asked: where's the Manual? And got ~~ MAN xxyz Just Like Unix. Natch the manual presumed I was hip to the jargon and just needed to know how to punch a bootstrap loader tape . . .
AND:
[NOW] Except it's Worse Now, because everyone Has been mistrained into the absurdities of the Secret Knowledge of proprietary massively bloated kluges and NDAs.
I See this-all: SET IN CONCRETE >>|<<
And worst, perhaps - a multibillion$ criminal monopoly spending huge amounts to suborn the likes of an Ashcroft now and next, to ENSURE that the US never ever.. gets out of the current morass of Universally-shitty s/ware and its [hah] ""paradigm"" [Hah].
Anything << H-Bomb blast could not dislodge the mindset and especially - evoke the WILL even to try. The certificated ones .. like wives of old -- have been encouraged to settle for rote implementation as 'good enough". Now we have a second generation of the barely-trained.
I infer this as the pattern within the now thousands of posts I Have Read (many 'here' as IWE has morphed) throughout the past almost 10 years. Good Ideas count absolutely SHIT within such a coccoon. We see. Either Dumth causes Bizness or vice versa: take your pick.
Sorry about your profession, folks.. it once semed to have Legs, now it's just Leggo.
Ashton
(But that's OK.. you aren't alone.) Talked to a cohort at the 'new' Advanced Light Source (ALS) - a synchrotron - at LBL; it's run by Corp droids there, now: each 'experiment' merely a development effort for a new commodity; run by technicians. Taxpayers subsidizing Intel or GE or YAN Corp - all masked as "research". Physics?? at a US "National Laboratory" in '03 ??? Nahhh.. Engineering-to-Market.
The US shall soon be 3rd rate in physics research, too - much preferring to fund the few theoreticians -that's CHEAP- and outsource the experimental facilities and concomitant training grounds for the next generation... to those who Care: elsewhere. -That's 'CHEAPEST' of all-
cf. fuckedcountry.com
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Post #120,925
10/11/03 2:12:17 PM
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Safely predicting the present :)
...I could even see a situation where you carry around all your computer work on a PDA, then "plug in" in one of the those standard cradles. Your certificate in the PDA would tie you in to the "net" (hopefully not .NET) and connect you with your work/home/whatever server. Your standard config is loaded on the PDA and you can work anywhere one of these cradles exists. Yup. The "standard cradle" is called "WiFi". The "net" is called "the 'Net", and my standard config is already on the machine in my hand, thank you very much. Bugger roaming profiles when the hardware roams just fine. I predict all the flap over T-Mobile-WiFi-in-Starbucks for $X/hr will go away (not tomorrow, but soon), as local coffee shops, bars, mass-transit facilities, city parks (and entire cities) put 'em up for free.
"There's a set of rules that anything that was in the world when you were born is normal and natural. Anything invented between when you were 15 and 35 is new and revolutionary and exciting, and you'll probably get a career in it. Anything invented after you're 35 is against the natural order of things." Douglas Adams
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Post #121,000
10/12/03 6:54:44 PM
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Or, failing Wi-Fi, Ethernet plug
--
OK, George W. is deceptive to be sure. Dissembling, too. And let's not forget deceitful. He is lacking veracity and frankness, and void of sooth, though seemingly sincere in his proclivity for pretense. But he did not lie. [link|http://www.jointhebushwhackers.com/not_a_liar.cfm|Brian Wimer]
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