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New Re: Bag the terminal nonjudgementalism.
Y'see, the problem is that our society is trapped in the dogma of Good versus Evil. We're Good, and anybody else who disagrees with us is Evil. This includes people inside the system who point out flaws within the system, until they become so large and gaping that you can't help but respond - "The emperor has no clothes!"

I heard an interesting metaphor, ironically enough, from the Islamic religion itself. Islam actually has two different kinds of Jihads - the Greater Jihad, which is the struggle within your own soul to purify yourself of all the sins of the world, and the Lesser Jihad, the fight to convert all of the world to Islam. According to the Koran, one may only partake in the Lesser Jihad after succeeding in the Greater Jihad - something which is impossible in this world.

Now, those morons that we backed in Afghanistan - and note I'm not saying Bin Laden since IMO he's just a bit player - have got it in their heads that they already have won the Greater Jihad, and now it's time to go on the Lesser Jihad. Never mind that by taking the actions that they have, they have shown themselves to have failed in the Greater Jihad. My source for this information? Last weekend, my wife and I stumbled into a Synagogue in time for the Shabbat services (my bad - when I read the paper, I thought it was the name of the temple, not the Sabbath!) and found out they were having a very interesting discussion with a member of the Israeli Defense Force, jewish down to that little skullcap that they wear, I don't remember the name. I then verified what he told me with a pair of Islamic friends of my wife, and they agreed completely with what he said.

I would say that the Taliban and most of the other terrorist groups out there are a symptom, not the disease. Admittedly, the symptoms have gotten so bad that we do need relief from them as well - but that does not excuse the source of the disease either. The source is our own blind acceptance of ourselves as the source of all that is Good in this world - and that is why I attack the notion of Good versus Evil.

You call for a rediscovery of the power of the Western world. I am calling for a discovery of a new kind of power, not the same old bullshit - because if we point it at somebody, it sure as hell will be used against us some day. If I'm going to be called in for execution because somebody else doesn't like the way I think, I'd rather be called in by somebody who's actively questioning their own motives instead of doing the same "my side right or right" bullshit you're pushing.

Not only that, but the same old bullshit hasn't worked in the past, otherwise we wouldn't be here right now. And before you pass it off as "it worked last time, until the knee-jerking pacifist broke it" - well, that's the natural result OF that kind of same old bullshit.

Now, back to what I was saying earlier about the Greater and Lesser Jihads. While an interesting idea, I don't subscribe to it - because while you're trying to purify yourself, somebody who has no interesting in purifying themselves comes up to you and your family, takes everything, and kills you. So yeah, I do believe in doing to others before they do to you. On the other hand, I don't believe in doing it because you believe you are Good and they are Evil - not because they may or may not be, but because we cannot ever truly know what really is Good and Evil. I have never seen any proof that this universe cares about human life - after all, it seems rather frivolous about how it is spent. I have not seen any real caring from the United States about the loss of human life other than it's own, and the occasional "Oh my god - they're starving in Africa! Let's airlift tons of food to the monsters that created the situation in the first place!" knee jerking.

Face it - this current fight isn't about Good versus Evil - it's about the most powerful bully in the school being hit by surprise by the school wimp, and getting a big gusher of a bloody nose. Now we're going to take down that kid, and we're going to earn ourselves the hatred of a lot more folks. They may not like the wimp, but they sure won't like the implications of our actions too much either.

Terrorism is just the latest question on the test. Are you going to throw away the whole test just so that you can be right on one question?

(BTW, I've been working on a final paper for class all week, and have been pretty busy at work, which is why I've been sniping as opposed to giving a proper responses. Sorry about that, Marlowe - I'm not normally a sniper. I'm still working on the paper, but I've had enough, so I kinda spewed this response out. Not enough time to really defend it, so if somebody else wants to shoot for me, go for it.)
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Dead right.. re the Jihads.
Nor is the concept owned by Islam. The 'esoteric' circles of most religions simply choose different names for the idea - you cannot 'act wisely' until you have won the internal war of opposites, caused by your ignorance of (say) 'what it is, you are', and might become. Etc.

Ditto Good/Evil - not merely "in the eye of the beholder", but ideas of such huge scale - almost no homo-sap ever can get it right (and ever ends up, settling for jingoistic 'Righteousness' - the lowest scale of all).

So it's (as always) a battle of languge, words and their referents. Most of the Big ones have no common referent and are just, blab - the mothers milk of pols everywhere. If even a small advancement is made in the general realization of, "how often we abuse language and nullify 'reason'" - the 5000 may not have died to no purpose. Truth - the first casualty of war.

(If we don't find a 'purpose' a bit more significant than acquiring infinite personal wealth; then shopping - soon - it won't matter much how the present fiasco turns out, anyway IMhO.)

Anyway, from my limited experience of Islam re the 'meanings' of the two Jihads - it's what you quoted, near as such large ideas can ever be ~encapsulated so briefly..


Ashton
New Re: Bag the terminal nonjudgementalism.
The greater Jihad/ lesser Jihad thing is pulled from a Hadith. That is, it is not part of the Koran itself, and is not accepted by all Muslims. Different groups of Muslims accept different sets of Hadiths, and it is also accepted that a certain percentage of Hadiths are incorrect *. Naturally this ones appeals to Islamic mystics. But there are other Hadiths that hold the exact opposite, that there is no act greater then military Jihad.

Jay

* Some Arab Islamic scholars have gone so far as to say that all Hadiths are forged.

New Re: Bag the terminal nonjudgementalism.
In this case, are you saying the terrorists were not evil, and compared to that we are not good?

There is evil in the world, and the U.S. has fought it in the past. Nazi Germany was evil. We fought. Successfully. Imperial Japan was evil. We fought. Successfully. We fought in Korea, with some success. (South Korea is a thriving wealthy nation as a result.)

Credibility -=1000;
     What made Atta tick? - (marlowe) - (9)
         Evil, no. - (inthane-chan) - (8)
             Evil, yes. - (rsf)
             Bag the terminal nonjudgementalism. - (marlowe) - (4)
                 Re: Bag the terminal nonjudgementalism. - (inthane-chan) - (3)
                     Dead right.. re the Jihads. - (Ashton)
                     Re: Bag the terminal nonjudgementalism. - (JayMehaffey)
                     Re: Bag the terminal nonjudgementalism. - (duke)
             Re: Evil, no. - (JayMehaffey)
             Supreme evil is... - (kmself)

Coincidence!? YOU DECIDE!!
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