Taking A Career-Hedging Plunge?

Post #9,803 by tablizer 9/20/01 2:18:18 AM Reply	Taking A Career-Hedging Plunge? I am kicking around the idea of going back to school to get a microbiology degree as a hedge from the roller-coaster fad/PHB-driven field of software development. Cells and viri and DNA are cool. (I just hope they let me use a calculator/computer in class. I am addicted to the help of a silicone mind.) Does anybody have any suggestions about the field of microbiology and if/how a computer background helps? I bet on web technology, and am now being punished for that. I don't have the BS skills and to easily slip into something related in a downturn, so I am stuck in nowhere land. Besides, this OOP crap is taking over everybody's thinking and scaring non-OO minds out of the field. Thus, the self-fulfilling prophecy will simply lead to more OO because of the new mind-type filter. Perhaps it will eventually die out when those with influence realize that OO is 100 times more complicated than those stupid shape, animal, and device-driver examples/cliches that give it it's phony credibility. (There is not one slice of objective evidence that OO reduces code size nor is more change-friendly to the biz climate.) I don't have an OO mind, and frank OO trainers have said that some people just never seem to "get it". OO simply does not model the way that I think, and seeing how live programmers can screw up procedural/relational code/designs in the field, having to walk into spaghetti OO from their OO counterparts makes one-character-per-variable-name-Perl sound pleasant. Protocol coupling can be infinitely abused. Lazy p/r at least has a pattern most of the time. Practitioners of foobarred p/r are usually not driven by conceptual idealism, but shear laziness or lack of planning. However, foobarred OO is driven by zealotry and intellectual masturbation. F'dPR is like Admiral Perry's Gunboats at Japan. However, F'dOO is like Bin Laden's group. I think OO is popular because it gives bored programmers more ways to make for pasta-tied job security and more BS to dazzle PHB's with. Nobody rewards good software-engineering anyhow. Even if OO potentially could make software more change-friendly (no proof), nobody will bother except as misdirected experiments in boredom. Biology is more stable. Cells don't change their paradigm every 12 years, and have less buzzfads going on around them. Even if microbiology does have cycles, the chances of them coinciding with IT fads is not that great. Thus, I would have 2 careers and hop between them as needed. Is this reasonable? Or, am I dreaming? Can I even afford it? Is there a legal limit to the number of family members who can sleep in one room? ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #9,804 by static 9/20/01 3:49:26 AM Reply	Some advice. First to Bryce: If you can support yourself whilst going back to school, I don't see why this isn't a bad idea. But consider whether or not you'd get a job at the end of it or not. It is worth the risk? Secondly to everyone else: We don't need a long thread started by someone taking exception to Bryce's opinions on OO. Wade. "All around me are nothing but fakes Come with me on the biggest fake of all!"
Post #9,840 by rsf 9/20/01 11:45:26 AM Reply	Questions Are thinking of getting a BS, MS, or PhD? Do you want to be a lab tech or do independent research? Do you want to work in industry or academia? Ray
Post #9,917 by tablizer 9/20/01 4:11:21 PM Reply	answers >> Are thinking of getting a BS, MS, or PhD? << BS for now. In computers too much education counts against you. Is microbiology different? >> Do you want to be a lab tech or do independent research? << I would rather automate lab work or automate research somehow. I don't want to be a lab factory grunt though. I like to automate repetitious tasks, not perform them for the most part. >> Do you want to work in industry or academia? << I don't know. Good questions. ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #9,944 by rsf 9/20/01 5:29:28 PM Reply	Re: answers >> Are thinking of getting a BS, MS, or PhD? << BS for now. In computers too much education counts against you. Is microbiology different? If you want to do research, you are going to need a Ph.D. The mentality is different than in IT. It's harder to get a job with just a BS. Getting into research requires alot of education, preferably in one of the big research universities, and a strong publication record. You don't get these unless you go onto a Ph.D./postdoc tract. One thing you should be aware of is almost all biology fields have really low salary scales compared other sciences, engineering, and CS. When I was at LLNL, I was working on a collaborative computational biology project composed of computer scientists, physicists, chemists, and biologiest. We pretty much shared equally in the work; computer scientists were doing biology and biologist were writing code. I later got a hold of the salaries for the group - they're public - and found out the biologists were paid slightly over half of what the computer scientists and physicists were making simply because of their title. This is endemic throughout the industry. The only exceptions to this salary imbalance, AFAIK, are for bioinformatic programmers (see below) and gene therapy researchers with PhDs or MDs. >> Do you want to be a lab tech or do independent research? << I would rather automate lab work or automate research somehow. I don't want to be a lab factory grunt though. I like to automate repetitious tasks, not perform them for the most part. Do you mean like robotics or something along the lines of pure software developement (e.g. data mining/warehousing)? If it's the former you probably are going to want to go more towards engineering with an emphasis in biology (I think UC Berkeley has such a program, probably other schools too). If it's the latter, you should look towards the field of bioinformatics, the application of CS to problems in genome analysis. Most people who get into this are biology types that move over to CS. Real software engineers who can work on large scale projects in this field are hard to come by so you may be able to get in without going a full 4 years of school because of the skill shortage. A biology/genetics crash course may be sufficient to get an entry level job. Check around at local universities. In the SF Bay Area, Stanford and UC Berkeley offer crash courses and certification in this field. If you are curious to see what employers are looking for, take a look at companies like Incyte, Celera, or Genetech, or look at the job listings on [link\|http://www.biospace.com\| Biospace ]. Now before you jump right in, you should be aware that virtually all bioinformatics work is done in Java or OO Perl (take a look at [link\|http://www.bioperl.org\|BioPerl]). Ray
Post #10,013 by tablizer 9/20/01 10:44:16 PM 9/20/01 10:47:07 PM Reply	No hiding from OO? >> Real software engineers who can work on large scale projects in this field are hard to come by so you may be able to get in without going a full 4 years of school because of the skill shortage. << But how long does that last? Shortages often lead to a "inventory surplus" in the end. Genetics is sort of in a bubble right now. If it does not deliver soon, investors will start pulling out. But, like I said, I could perhaps hop back and forth as long as the slumps don't cooincide. >> Now before you jump right in, you should be aware that virtually all bioinformatics work is done in Java or OO Perl (take a look at BioPerl).<< Waaaaah! I can't excape OO. Perhaps because most science school tracks don't teach database/table skills. Thus, they tend to instantiate and process everything in language-specific collections. I need to show them the power of getting GOF-like patterns with mere expressions instead of physical code structure. Thanks for the advice. ________________ oop.ismad.com Edited by tablizer Sept. 20, 2001, 10:47:07 PM EDT Expand All History
Post #10,017 by boxley 9/20/01 11:02:31 PM Reply	dunno about oop , at sphinx pharm oop oop was what doberman said to phil silvers:) they were oracle, sql, nix and S thanx, bill why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
Post #10,029 by tablizer 9/21/01 12:59:53 AM Reply	"S"? I am also heavily considering the DBA route (NT) >> they were oracle, sql, nix and S << ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #10,085 by Fearless Freep 9/21/01 11:31:26 AM Reply	Re: answers Now before you jump right in, you should be aware that virtually all bioinformatics work is done in Java or OO Perl (take a look at BioPerl). Most of [link\|http://www.bioreason.com\|our] work uses Python. We have a OO molecular model and OO processes controlled by somewhat procedural 'scripts', Often with an OO UI wrapping the input/Output of the scripts Jay O'Connor "Going places unmapped to do things unplanned to people unsuspecting"
Post #10,000 by kmself 9/20/01 9:37:30 PM Reply	Biology & education More is better in biology. A BS will barely get you a lab-tech position. With an MS, you're best off topping out of lab work and doing marketing or other crossover business role. PhDs call all the shots in labs, funding, and research. There's a very strong link between education and status (and pay) in biology. Payscales generally are lower than in computers, though careers tend to be more stable. My own experience is in the pharmaceutical and genetic engineering industries. `-- Karsten M. Self [link\|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com\|kmself@ix.netcom.com] What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?`
Post #10,251 by tonytib 9/23/01 12:45:39 AM Reply	Actually, for lab automation, most likely use something like LabView, which is graphical programming. I'm pretty sure there are companies that specialize in lab (bio and chemical) automation -- you might want to try searching. However, it's far enough away from my area that I don't know of any companies. If you work to get through college, you might want to consider working for an automation distributor (e.g. some in the Bay Area are Automation Solutions and Western Technology Marketing), component company (e.g. IDEC, IDC, Parker Compumotor, PacSci, Emerson Electric, Adept, etc), or equivalent biotech company. The advantage is that you'd get to know a lot of people at various companies that use the stuff. And, at least sometimes App Engineers are well paid, although "well" doesn't go as far in the Bay Area. Good luck, Tony
Post #11,527 by tablizer 10/3/01 3:00:15 PM Reply	re: LabView I worked for a place that used Labview. I did not use it myself, but most associates did. The company kept shrinking, however. I don't know what the owners/managers kept doing wrong, but they could not fix the company. (Perhaps their error was hiring an OOP hater?) ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #9,857 by boxley 9/20/01 1:11:08 PM Reply	in the pharms field your computer expertise is valuable why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them? Randy Wayne White
Post #10,566 by gdaustin 9/26/01 12:28:17 PM Reply	Re: Taking A Career-Hedging Plunge? Here's my advice. If you don't need the money (family to support, etc), then become a lab rat for a while, then go to work for someone like Cerner, SunLabs, or HCDC (now bought by someone else) who does automation for healthcare. This field is quickly becoming very hot right now, because the terms of HIPAA (Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act) are forcing companies to make super major changes to their computer systems in a 1-2 year time window. I realize that traditionally, healthcare is a trail of tears, but the passage of HIPAA is forcing many hospitals to fund Y2K-like efforts to upgrade and enhance their systems. As for OO and your table-based programming, our latest Java pharmacy claims processor does both. It loads in pharmacy claims definition tables into arrays of objects, parses different forms of pharmacy claims, and the either stores them into our database, or writes it out in either a Properties file, or writes it back out as a valid pharmacy claim message. Use the best tools for the job. OO is not all goodness, and tables aren't all badness, either. The best programmers steal techniques from everywhere. Glen Austin
Post #10,726 by tablizer 9/27/01 11:16:16 PM Reply	quesitons >> become a lab rat for a while, then go to work for someone like .... << But I am physically kinda clumsly (the same way I am verbally clumsy :-) I would probably desolve my hand in acid within a month. Would they tolerate somebody like that long enuf for promotion (assuming I wear acid-proof gloves)? >> or writes it out in either a Properties file ...<< What is a "properties file"? A RAM-dump of object attributes? Why not put it into tables? (or will I start another fight by asking that)? Does anybody have a comment on this book?: [link\|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565926641/ref=pd_fr_h_w/ref=/104-9476582-3969550?coliid=I3MOZKKCVIDF6F\| [link\|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1565926641/ref=pd_fr_h_w/ref=/104-9476582-3969550?coliid=I3MOZKKCVIDF6F\|http://www.amazon.c...MOZKKCVIDF6F]] (Developing Bioinformatics Computer Skills by Cynthia Gibas, Per Jambeck) Thanks for your suggestions ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #10,813 by Fearless Freep 9/28/01 1:35:58 PM Reply	Stop kneejerking on phrases >> or writes it out in either a Properties file ...<< What is a "properties file"? A RAM-dump of object attributes? Why not put it into tables? He said "either stores them into our database, or..." A Properties file can be as simple as set of key,value pairs like an INI file or an XML dump of object attributes or whatever, just basically storing data as a flat file Jay O'Connor "Going places unmapped to do things unplanned to people unsuspecting"
Post #10,872 by tablizer 9/28/01 11:05:53 PM Reply	reply >> A Properties file can be as simple as set of key,value pairs like an INI file or an XML dump of object attributes or whatever, just basically storing data as a flat file << I find that collections often later need more features than raw flat files can provide. I don't like to change API's just to get the next step up in features. (Note that some ODBC drivers can read/write to flat files. The physical representation is just another attribute.......in theory.) ________________ oop.ismad.com
Post #11,121 by gdaustin 10/1/01 2:10:08 PM Reply	Re: quesitons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I am physically kinda clumsly (the same way I am verbally clumsy :-) I would probably desolve my hand in acid within a month. Would they tolerate somebody like that long enuf for promotion (assuming I wear acid-proof gloves)? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because of clumsy lab assistants, a lot of the lab tests are done via equipment. In many cases, you don't even take the lids off of blood, etc. The machine does. Secondly, you'll become a lot more careful when you realize that each vial of blood you carry potentially has HIV or Hepatitis B. Instead of being a goof, you become very careful because not being careful could be fatal. If you don't have that temperment, then perhaps you belong in sales (with all the other goofs). A careless/clumsy temperment doesn't work well in IT or programming, either. As for the properties file, understand that we're really using the database call interface the most, because it is the most valuable. We did the properties file because it was easy to implement. Glen Austin
Post #11,524 by tablizer 10/3/01 2:56:44 PM Reply	Burger Degree >> A careless/clumsy temperment doesn't work well in IT or programming, either. << I meant physically clumsy, and not necessarily mentally clumsy. Sometimes I tell my hand to go to coordinate x,y, but instead it goes to x+foo, y+bar without asking me. It is usually larger movements instead of smaller ones. Odd how they require that much education to move bottle from positition A to position B. What percentage of such a job actually uses biology knowledge? Mickie Dees is gonna require a degree in organic chemistry to flip burgers at this rate. I hear this is what is happening in Saudi Arabia because education > jobs, and that is why people go into terrorism instead. ________________ oop.ismad.com

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