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New "We can't forget the people"
I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin-Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters. But the Taliban and Bin-Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin-Laden is a political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin-Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps." It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats' nest of international thugs holed up in their country. Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban?

The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan - a country with no economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around . They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs.

But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban - by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time.

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin-Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand . What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin- Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that, folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin-Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the West. It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the West wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin-Laden's point of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

Bin-Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary.
Jay O'Connor

"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
New About the Jews in the concentration camps.
I'm of the opinion that they should've put up much more of a resistance, from the beginning to the end. When they're dragging you to the gas chambers, you don't go politely. That's just stupid. You go kicking, screaming, clawing and biting. You try to grab a guard's gun and shoot him with it. You make a fuss. Would it have made a difference? I don't know for sure, but I don't see how it could have made things any worse.

Yeah, that's easy for me to say. But Richard Rubenstein agrees with me.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Re: About the Jews in the concentration camps.
I've read several books about this. Most recently, Treblinka. The scholars pointed out that the Germans incredibly masterfully developed programs that played on group mentality, and Jewish culture.

Many young people in the ghettos advocated uprisings, but were held back by their elders. If they rose up, they'd all be killed. But if they waited, well, they weren't dead yet, they were still alive, maybe they'd be able to appease the Germans, maybe they'd survive.

You try to grab a guard's gun and shoot him with it. You make a fuss. Would it have made a difference? I don't know for sure, but I don't see how it could have made things any worse.

When your action kills 10-20 others.. its harder to act.. But it was hard to revolt, since the Germans were very well armed, and the Jews weren't.

Even so, the Warsaw Jews managed to steal 6? pistols, start a firefight, and held off the Germans for weeks - diverting men from the Eastern front (I think they ended up going in with 20k men).

For their efforts the survivors were savaged, and those survivors immediately "liquidated".

Note the did have the escape from Sobibor... But that was largely only successful becaue of the Russian Army prisoners that had been imprisoned there. (of the people who escaped, 6? survived the war?)

Addison
     "We can't forget the people" - (Fearless Freep) - (2)
         About the Jews in the concentration camps. - (marlowe) - (1)
             Re: About the Jews in the concentration camps. - (addison)

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