Post #95,800
4/10/03 2:17:07 PM
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You can if you'd like, but it's not necessary for
this discussion. My premise is that Bush does what he says. He clearly stated in January 2002 "But some governments will be timid in the face of terror. And make no mistake about it: If they do not act, America will." I think he pretty much sums up what the US just did... You?
His taking this to the UN for a second resolution was politically foolish, as it is clear that some of the nations were not about to be anything but "timid".
By the way, [link|http://www.command-post.org/archives/002978.html|http://www.command-p...hives/002978.html]
Motives? Pacifism?
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
Living is easy with eyes closed
misunderstanding all you see,
it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out
it doesn't matter much to me
J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
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Post #95,804
4/10/03 2:27:28 PM
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Bush does what he says.
"I will serve my full committment to the Air National Guard."
"I will protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
"I will get Osama, dead or alive."
"I will find the Anthrax killer"
"I will support the rebuilding of Afghanistan"
on and on.........
Nice record he has.
The world is only a simple place to the simple.
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Post #95,809
4/10/03 2:37:52 PM
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:) what record I swear she said she was 18
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #95,814
4/10/03 2:45:13 PM
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Do better than that... if you must.
The only one that is valid (not a matter of time or interpretation) is the first and that was a quote from long, long before he became pres...
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
Living is easy with eyes closed
misunderstanding all you see,
it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out
it doesn't matter much to me
J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
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Post #95,820
4/10/03 3:01:44 PM
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You are wrong
No other proof needed. My assertion is all that matters.
(turnabout is fair play after all)
The world is only a simple place to the simple.
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Post #95,854
4/10/03 4:30:52 PM
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<Chuckle> Your choice...
You can if you'd like, but it's not necessary for this discussion. My premise is that Bush does what he says. He clearly stated in January 2002 "But some governments will be timid in the face of terror. And make no mistake about it: If they do not act, America will." I think he pretty much sums up what the US just did... You?
I agree with you that he said he was going to handle it if no-one else did so and he has. My disagreement (and my example) was that "Bush does what he says". My counter-example was he's Press Briefing on March 6, 2003
Let's see here. Elizabeth.
Q Thank you, Mr. President. As you said, the Security Council faces a vote next week on a resolution implicitly authorizing an attack on Iraq. Will you call for a vote on that resolution, even if you aren't sure you have the vote?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first, I don't think -- it basically says that he's in defiance of 1441. That's what the resolution says. And it's hard to believe anybody is saying he isn't in defiance of 1441, because 1441 said he must disarm. And, yes, we'll call for a vote.
Q No matter what?
THE PRESIDENT: No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam.
[link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/print/20030306-8.html| White House Press Briefing ]
By the way, [link|http://www.command-p...hives/002978.html|http://www.command-p...hives/002978.html] [*]
Motives? Pacifism?
Who knows, who cares? You made the statement that Bush does what he says he's going to do. I provided a counter-example. Now you're trying to change the subject.
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Post #95,891
4/10/03 5:59:24 PM
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he didnt say when he will call for a second resolution
he might call for one any day now, however the wording may have changed. :-)
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
Since corporations are the equivelent of human but they have no "concience" they are by definition sociopaths
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Post #95,892
4/10/03 6:02:55 PM
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Ha!
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Post #95,898
4/10/03 6:13:46 PM
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Okay, you got me...
I'll concede.
What I'm getting at, more precisely, is that Bush has been crystal clear and succinct in his statements regarding Iraq. I think that most of the "noise" regarding the build up and execution of the Iraqi war was created by the media and by his pundits. He really hasn't deviated any of his positions since 9/11. I think (not verifiable) that 9/11 profoundly changed his and most Americans world view. His "let's roll" comment struck at the heart of me, a former "if it feels good, do it" er. I interpret this to mean, "actions speak louder than words".
In my heart of hearts, I have the same fears that you and cwbrenn have expressed. But I don't fear our government or our president... not yet.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
Living is easy with eyes closed
misunderstanding all you see,
it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out
it doesn't matter much to me
J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
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Post #95,933
4/10/03 10:47:58 PM
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But then, every 'fanatic and bigot' too -
has "the courage of his convictions".
Isn't that what you are saying in apologia for the record of this same Bush?
re the Constitution (a matter not addressed in your paeans of admiration for his 'record) ie *Everything* which has occurred on his/their watch, to date.
re the daily altering 'reasons' why.. an EMERGENCY! EXISTS [SUDDENLY] - which requires the unilateral launch of a first-strike against another sovereign country. No matter what anyone else in the world thinks.
[Implicit: don't bug me with details: I Know What I Want .. and here are another few new reasons today, why It's Good for You.]
I am so glad to hear that you do not fear our President; I may only postulate that somewhere in your reasoning is an allowance ~ "he's not bright enough to get us in Real trouble because: We Are the Most Militarily Powerful Country Inna Worl\ufffd". [? ?]
Perhaps you would fear the brain trust behind him - you've read about the Project for The New American Century, I trust [?] and noted the common roster there and in this President's cabinet. Doubtless you are aware of the omnipresence (from Texas-win onwards) of one Karl Rove? have also noted one William Kristol? etc. They're all 'on board'.
OK then, if not fear, will horror do?
I dunno Dan.. s'wonnerful to Trust Someone. I've found though, that it's a lot more satisfying if you can also respect [him/her + camp followers]. And in this case, camp followers == actual brains 'speaking'. (We dare not digress to the other overlapping category - that of Christian Fundamentalism with emphasis on Revelations: all taken literally by the aforementioned Leaders of the 2nd Biggest Nuke Arsenal extant.)
Doverai ni proverai, Gospodin
Ashton
"A civilian gang of thieving lobbyists for the military industrial complex is running the White House. If to be against them is considered unpatriotic -- Hell, then call me a traitor."
-- Hunter S. Thompson
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Post #95,945
4/10/03 11:47:46 PM
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At the risk of stating the obvious...
we have a serious disagreement here... I understand your cynicism. Hell, I even share most of it. But I'm not willing to take it as far as you seem to.
My mom used to say that water is mostly air in reference to the glass being half empty or half full. I know I may be missing a bunch and I truly trust your intellect. That said, I still feel that you may be part of a counter-cabal of hubris (spelled correctly - thank you :-)) That you have become a member of the armchair warriers and nattering nabobs of negativity. You don't want to give this guy a chance...
I joined the service before going to college. I thought it was my turn, my duty. There has always been something a little wrong with me. I'm guilty as charged. I also have young kids, which makes me yearn for a better world and why I won't shed any tears for repressive dictatorships as they fall, by American and British hands or by others. I know a lot of what's happening now is the sell, sell sell as do you. It is our culture. It is propoganda. But I do believe - still - that regarding the war on terrorism, this administration is acting in my best interest and my children's. YMMV.
This mess in Iraq was unfinished business and if we had adopted yet more appeasement as policy, my children would have inherited the burden of this mess with interest. So, yeah, I'm selfish too. Witness the prowess of the UN handling the Yugoslavia situation. So maybe I think I have choose the lesser of the two evils?
It's easy to sit back and criticize others, doers... Believe me, I work at a major university and see it every day. It's hard to make decisions, even wrong ones, and follow them through. What was the UN's "plan" for dealing with Hussein? Oh, that's right... let's just keep doing what we've been doing and pay much more lip service. That'll bring down a fascist regime. Fucking joke, man.
Come on over to the dark side, brother... the glass can be half full.
Just a few thoughts,
Screamer
Living is easy with eyes closed
misunderstanding all you see,
it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out
it doesn't matter much to me
J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
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Post #95,956
4/11/03 1:44:21 AM
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Yours is a fair cop.
And may even 'succeed' - if enough people remain alert to the man ^h men! behind the curtain and their published plans for us all. My supposition is that you aren't up for an Empire for your children to 'maintain 24/7' either.
We seem to disagree mainly on: the probability we shall get one anyway.
I look at peoples' physiognomy.. eyes, body language - in addition to the words, when they speak. It isn't infallible; great actors can almost.. fake it. Then I look at the company men keep. That, so far - causes me to believe that Dubya et al are quite capable of implementing Empire - by-any-other-name as will do for consumption. If they can get away with an artful enough cover-plan. In this case, it is not the paranoid they - read the Cabinet roster.
Hope you're right. Mainly I hope that I'm giving this group too much credit re orchestrating the conversion of a pseudo-Republic into a manageable mass of scared sheep. Will 'we' trade that messy, argumentative arrangement for the homogenized convenience of a New Dream of.. 'perfect security' from the rest of the world's opinion of our machinations?
I trust you feed the tykes some brain food - they'll need to use that muscle in any next.
Movie at 9/11
Cheers,
Ashton
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