Post #9,504
9/17/01 4:07:47 PM
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I understand your pt of view, but am still reacting to it.
Specifically, the language you're using to explain it. To say that the subjugation and mutilation of thousands of innocent people is a "custom" which we do not understand is really insulting and blatantly wrong. What's really to understand? No--to say that behavior is a custom we do not understand is a necessary and vital step toward acting to change it. What I think you mean is this: "to say it's a custom and by that declaration imply we do nothing about it is ... wrong". Surely you are fighting against understanding without action--I am fighting just as hard against action without understanding. Let's meet in the middle. What I'm most worried about is the (I guess rhetorical) question, "what place does Islam have in the modern world?"--as if it had no place (to any "rational" mind). You say you are not referring only to extremists, then describe the religion as if only extremists can be adherents. This is obviously false, since those being victimized in Kashmir are both devoted Muslims (by CHOICE, which they will defend to the death against your "liberation", because they'd rather have their religion than yours), and, at the same time, do not agree women should be killed for failing to wear a veil. You should really check out some of the punishments in the Old Testament, by the way--you might be surprised to see similar unilateral judgments which Judaism has long since stopped performing (when was the last stoning you attended? for example, yet it's written in the Law). I honestly believe that the Muslim nations (the menfolk) have been keenly aware of this progression and see the inevitable "evolution". Me too--and more accept the evolution than I think you are giving them credit for. Certainly many more are accepting the evolution than fighting against it; it's just that accepting it is not done in such graphic ways as rejecting it: guns, bombs, and killer planes. Part of the Muslim world is upset over America forcing American culture down their throats. The rest of the Muslim world is upset over Americans who think they are backward, uncivilized, and less than human because their religion has extremists just like every other religion. That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #10,689
9/27/01 6:00:47 PM
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When was the last stoning you attended? 1997, IIRC.
It was a ritual thing in a Catholic church. We invent new rituals all the time. This one ended with the famous "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" line.
Almost ended badly - there was an individual present with a more than decent arm who qualified. My 3 year old. Baptized and too young to know right from wrong, therefore technicaly without sin by the local rules. And he would have taken the shot, and hit, if I hadn't swiped his rock.
----
Watch this space: Catch-22 quote will appear once I have the book in front of me.
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Post #10,713
9/27/01 8:53:30 PM
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Stoning is practiced daily in israel
both by the palestinians against the israelis and some Jews against other jews who dress a little skimpy in public. Last pictures I saw was about a month ago.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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Post #10,797
9/28/01 12:19:07 PM
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Examples don't disprove the fact...
...that Judaism, especially as practiced outside Israel itself, has long since abandoned a strict interpretation of the Law. Many, many Muslims have followed and are following the same liberalizing path. Who is to say that Islam should no longer be allowed to exist because certain factions are still fundamental or extreme? Should we not rather expect the liberalization trend to continue, because of the very existence of public outcry against the fundamentalist approach? Reeds in the wind must bend or be broken; why the vehement desire to reach out and break for ourselves the ones that are already bending? The ones which will break will break on their own...
That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #10,865
9/28/01 10:11:41 PM
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Agreed, but let us strive for consistency
(Though it's a bit of a shock seeing the word liberalized used not as pejorative.. in 'these times' ;-)
The lowest chakra (in one scheme about the location of various energies in the body) is at the fundament. This is among the three classed as, 'animal instinctive' whereas the fourth - is at the 'Heart', going on up..
Irony or prescience?
I'd simply like to see a recognition that, across all groups, nations, organized and disorganized religions: there is a common sub-group, perhaps defined ~ as,
those whose allegiance is solely to (each one's personal interpretation of) God's Will. To put a finer point on 'solely': this personal Mission (?) supersedes any and all social matters whatsoever. Thus, loss of life, property, institutions: is simply of no importance, and may even be a prime goal for that one's 'existence' here.
These are my natural enemy. I'd advocate these becoming formally recognized as such: the enemy of all variants of what we mean by 'civilization', too. Wherever found.
Ashton
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Post #11,014
9/30/01 5:29:11 PM
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Which would be me, if it weren't for:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and the second command is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself."
:)
That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #11,023
9/30/01 6:21:33 PM
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If I might quote thee,
"Therefore all who will speak up for me before men, I will speak up for
him before my Father who is in the heavens; and whoever denies me
before men, I also will deny him before my Father who is in the
heavens.
Do not suppose that I came to bring peace upon the earth; I did not
come to bring peace but rather a sword. For I came to make a man
hostile against his father and a daughter hostile against her mother
and a bride hostile against her mother-in-law, and his enemies [shall
be] his own household." And as we both are well aware, this is hardly near the most extreme prescriptions for violence to be found - within this tissue of essays by individual men, all stapled together by other men - then re-translated, edited. And left for interpretation by millions, unacquainted with the idea of allegory, and hardly interested in discovering. As with all the other Holy books, none of which came via supernatural meteorite / with glyphs. Of Course! there are passages such as above, also common to every other Western religion. Do you know many capable of applying that general plea for Goodness / ignoring the other exhortations to ~Slay for God's Love? Any? Would you seriously assert that 'spiritual awareness' has anything whatsoever to do with various mens' dogma (we won't get into womens')? I deem that a fair question, if the object is to comprehend homo-sap's relationship to theology as of 2001 (by One calendar). You are clearly capable of other than the play of opposites - though it's a lot more work than merely extirpating volumes of contradictions. Is fundamentalism a tenable mindset for survival next.. or not? (there's a nice Boolean one for dismissal, as it won't just go away). *That* was what my earlier assertion concerned, not more about mens' words on paper. Cheers, Ashton
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Post #11,026
9/30/01 7:15:00 PM
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Quote away
Is fundamentalism a tenable mindset for survival next.. or not? As always, your obfuscated language obscures whatever point you were trying to make. Write in complete sentences if you expect to be answered. What the heck does "survival next" mean? That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
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Post #11,062
10/1/01 3:45:04 AM
10/1/01 3:46:43 AM
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Unclear?
Is fundamentalism a tenable mindset for survival next.. or not?
Seems to have a subject and a predicate, but I suppose the question could be taken trivially: "can this mindset survive" next? (Who would have any idea how to erase a common mindset from the repertoire?)
Can (our idea of) civilization, that of the 'open society', survive relentless anonymous attack from within and without - via all presently known techno means?
But never mind. Such a question can generate only endless ideas of what 'survival' might mean; how many suspects, territories might be erased in escalating horrors and increasingly irrational responses to an invisible opponent. Nobody has any idea of what we might next find ourselves (US) capable. Not even worth speculating.
Happened to catch this evening, a CNN showing of the British journalists's foray into Afg. (before 9/11). Her interview with a Taliban official, after her visit to the 'football stadium' now being used for public executions. His comment,
~ "if [those outside Afg.] wish to see this field used for sports, perhaps they could build us a place for executions. We have our work to do.."
The rest of the hour, via open and at times hidden cameras - demonstrated the destruction of the infrastructure and the repression of most people and of all women. She has a midle-Eastern name ( ___? Shah) and speaks the language.
Forget any idea of 'rationality'. For the Taliban - this is 'survival' enough.
Seems already clear enough - the personal fantasies on all sides about "what a God Wants", those held by a few with the power to order actions: will determine the escalations next. 'We' won't have a vote - 'National Security'.
I smell a new form of homo-sap madness: Religiocide?
Clock has been set back to October, 1962.
No questions,
Ashton
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Post #11,106
10/1/01 12:46:00 PM
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yup saw a neato catoon today
kindly Uncle sam asking hulking flag draped joe sixpack to sign a petition. The big guy goes "dont you know there is a war on? Buncha sedition crap!" and storms away. Uncle sam goes "It was the bill of rights". Sad but gonna be true. Hafta see what Gerry Spence charges for a retainer these days.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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