Post #9,253
9/15/01 1:48:23 AM
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I went down into Burbank this evening.
Obviously a lot of organization had been done. There were pickup trucks and SUVs cruising every street blowing their horns and waving flags. On every street corner and in many yards were people jumping up and down and chearing and waving flags, all lit up with candles. People were running wildly around in the streets cheering.
To be blunt, I was more than a little offended. I was a whole lot offended. A real whole lot offended. This is just plain sickening.
Thousands of our people have just died. We are now, quite frankly, planning the deaths of thousands more people, perhaps tens of thousands more.
This in NOT an occasion for a FUCKING FOOTBALL RALLY. People have died, lots of them. People are going to die, lots of them, and one of them just might be you.
Are people so damned stupid they haven't a clue what kind of behavior is appropriate?
Sheeeeesh!
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
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Post #9,257
9/15/01 2:11:50 AM
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Two thoughts on that
One, yours. Silence and mourning.
Second, let's not let the bastards get satisfaction by interrupting our normal lives. Live it up to the fullest, stuff it in their face.
I have to say I sympathise with the second viewpoint, and I am disappointed at how many events have been cancelled (either in cowardice or in respect, one can't tell which.)
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
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Post #9,263
9/15/01 3:21:52 AM
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Re: Self feeding war frenzy
During the lead up to the Gulf war (and in fact the Panama invasion) I was in a position to be in and out of the US at regular intervals and was quite taken aback at the effect. Simply it was walking in and out of the US during both events.
The emotional frenzy was just so apparent. At that time I had no doubt that the govt was using the few press chanels available to prepare the country for the events they had planned.
This time it is a different sequence. The events have occured & the govt & press even if it wanted to, does not have to be the instrument of raising emotion. It seems to be much more spontanious.
This is war.
In order to wage war the people have to want it and be willing to pursue it. Arafat did this whipping up in Palestine after deciding that the Israelis just hadn't gone far enough (he badly miscalculated, but we are all caught up in the result).
The odd aspects of this kind of event is how it brings people together. Enemies suddenly can become friends so together they can face a larger more fearful enemy & you have to believe that the Bin Laden Islamic militant threat is as good a common enemy as any one could want to focus on.
It was an American Arab friend of mine from Texas who told me during the gulf war of an old Arab saying that more or less went like this.
Me against my brother, my brothers & I against our cousins, our cousins and I against the next village, the next village and us against ....
Well now we have Russia & US & Europe against 'evil-militant-terrorism' expect India & China to join the coalition although China will be more cautious and less militant.
The dogs of war are unleashed & the hysteria will consume many good people & ideals & dreams. The hope is that like the eternal phoenix, we will resurect ourselves from the ashes. This may seem very heavy comment but I haven't the *slightest* doubt about the path we are heading down & the out come.
The best hope scenario is that the coalition powers can include enough Islamic countries to prevent the 'enemy' draging them all in on the opposing side. Make no mistake about the events unfolding, the world as we know it is about to change in much the same way it did before & after both WW1 & WW2.
- Pakistan is between a rock and a hard place.
- Afghanistan is about to be tipped on its head yet again. Taliban are *dead meat*. Bin Laden isn't, his org can still survive him
- India may just grab the opportunity to settle historical scores and the insurrection in the himalyas with Pakistan plus remove their fear of Pakistan having nukes. India migh be tempted to wipe Pakistan out altogether if the prime minister of Pakistan makes one mis-step.
- Israel might use the situation to cat the balls of Palestinian militancy.
- Israel & west might also use the situation to smash hizbolla
- Phillipines might try to use the situation to eradicate islamic resistance in south
- Indonesia might use the situation to crush the aspirations of the Achenese
- Malaysia's Mahatir my grab the opportunity to cement a longer reign over Malaysia
- China may grab the opportunity to completely suppress their northern islamic rebellion
- Don't know what will happen to Iraq, but it won't be good - maybe Hussien is no real threat (I think he still is)
- Don't know what will happen in Albania & Balkans. I think the harm has already been done there & more or less tidied up.
- Don't know what the impact will be on Bosnia - they have a big debt of gratitude to nato & west, they might keep out of it.
The challenge is how to attack Islamic militancy without feeding it. It may turn out that with all the countries mentioned in the coalition, that the remainder of the Islamic world who can see the final outcome, are just too smart to get involved.
Doug Marker
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Post #9,265
9/15/01 6:33:07 AM
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Fascinating list..
And there must be many more jig-saw pieces in the chaos of conflicting aims. Someone else has brought up:
The Other 'War' here, on drugs: as noted, a large source of funds for terrorists worldwide, due to our massive preoccupation with punishment - already escalated to the Draconian level. Muricans will pay (obviously) the nearly infinite amounts demanded by the artificial scarcity - to obtain even that chimerical relief from the normal environment.
Given such internal contradictions (and supply/demand for drugs, is just one) and the vast unknowns next - about how skillfully (or not) are the international approaches made (?) I think it's a pretty safe call:
Nobody anywhere, has the foggiest idea what the next few months might bring us all. Since *some retaliation* is simply mandated: we'd best all hope for a huge slice of luck in next machinations, particularly in finding something resembling "just punishment" (?) upon a number of bin-L cells.
Because if this soon slips from growing frustration into blind vengeance...
A.
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Post #9,266
9/15/01 6:49:03 AM
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Re: Some other info ...
We have had to suspend resumption of testing of the CarterCopter in Texas because our chief test pilots was an instructor in the USAF. He has been called up & understand we may not see him for a while. We were due to fly again this week-end after a 6 week break.
On the news just now was word that the Israelis are more or less giving Arafat an ultimatum, declare support for the US anti-terrorist side or be treated as part of the terrorists who will be targeted.
It is also said that the Israelis have invaded Gaza but am not clear on the purpose of extent.
We also think that China might be tightening up its border controls base on wife having gone thru yesterday. We can't say for sure but the queues at border were many times longer than normal on exiting China.
Cheers
Doug
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Post #9,268
9/15/01 8:19:07 AM
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Hussein
- Don't know what will happen to Iraq, but it won't be good - maybe Hussien is no real threat (I think he still is) While bin Laden's name is being thrown around a lot, Hussein is clearly another possible instigator and likely a supporter. Iraq is certainly a threat in the region, as much so as it was before it invaded Kuwait. Perhaps moreso, as after a decade of military cuts we couldn't mount anything like Desert Storm. (Yes, I would blame the Clinton administration for it - but I would also note that Bush, despite campaigning for a strong military, hasn't done a hell of a lot in his nine months in office to change things.) (Cussing both lily-livered political parties.) I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its futility, its stupidity. - Dwight D. Eisenhower
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Post #9,275
9/15/01 10:16:05 AM
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Kids these days.
Saw a bunch of high schoolers whooping it up, cheering, and singing God Bless America. I turned on the news and nothing in particular had happened in the past twelve hours.
I blame it on the public school system. High school is like being on the Big Brother show, or being a Microsoft employee. You're completely isolated from reality, and constantly manipulated. Not a bad thing unless you happen to be smart enough to suspect what's going on. Then it's hell.
It's a great way to train factory workers and cannon fodder, though. They should do a special Daria episode about this.
Here's hoping this war doesn't go into overtime.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,286
9/15/01 11:39:53 AM
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cynical reply
Here's hoping this war doesn't go into overtime. Here's hoping the war (if the weasels in Washington have the guts to pursue it) shocks a generation of Americans out of the wussy limp-wristed political correct policies that have plagued us for the past ten or twenty years. Example: Before WTC: Oh, dear ,we gotta let disabled people join the marines. Post WTC: (is my hope) Get your f***ing ass out of here, we're in a war. That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
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Post #9,470
9/17/01 2:00:52 PM
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Don't discount the disabled.
One nice thing about high tech is it makes physical disability less relevant to one ability to contribute in society. Or even in war.
For better or worse, war is going high tech. You don't have to be able to walk in order to push a button. Paraplegic? Give him an armor plated motorized wheelchair with gun mount. Quadriplegic? Put his brain in a jar and wire it up to a tank.
The next phase in the evolution of war: Daleks!
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,472
9/17/01 2:05:07 PM
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Cost effectiveness.
How many grunts could you field for the cost of making that armored wheelchair?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #9,478
9/17/01 2:21:57 PM
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Grunts indeed.
If we try to armor the foot soldiers as heavily as we can armor that wheelchair, they'll be grunting all right. And groaning. And keeling over from heart attacks.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
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Post #9,482
9/17/01 2:37:22 PM
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The tech mistake.
Y'see, give 2-3 grunts AP missile launchers, and fit the rest with standard weapons, no armor. I can almost guarantee you that you'll be able to field 10-20x more people...
Armor is great. Armor is nifty. Armor is useless without infantry support, and costs buckets too. Designing an armored tank for people with disabilities is a nifty idea, but would cost $$$ that could outfit a heck of a lot more people without disabilities to be just as effective. And right now, manpower is a lot cheaper than manufactured goods.
Was it here that I saw the comment on 2-3x F-5s versus 1 F-16? Where 3 F-5s = 1 dead F16, and F-5s cost 1/5 of an F-16?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #9,473
9/17/01 2:05:20 PM
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Cost effectiveness.
How many grunts could you field for the cost of making that armored wheelchair?
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #9,491
9/17/01 3:30:19 PM
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A bit of a clarification
Disabled people certainly can serve the military in non-combat positions - they undoubtedly would like all the computer programmers, scientists, designers, etc. they can recruit.
But the armored wheelchair.... nawwwwww. Or was that more irony?
Rest in peace, Jeremy, Mark, Thomas, and whoever else who helped overpower the hijackers on Flight 93.
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Post #9,495
9/17/01 3:36:08 PM
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Not really
Disabled people certainly can serve the military in non-combat positions - they undoubtedly would like all the computer programmers, scientists, designers, etc. they can recruit.
I was a computer programmer in the military. Several of the people from my unit were deployed as computer support to Saudi Arabia during Desert Storm.
Even though your AFSC may say "Computer Programmer", you may be called upon, and often are even in non-wartime to do a lot more than just write code. FWIW - I'm also M-16 qualified; not a typicla job skill for a programmer
Jay O'Connor
"Going places unmapped
to do things unplanned
to people unsuspecting"
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Post #9,494
9/17/01 3:32:15 PM
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That wouldn't be the proper use for them
Though there is no reason they couldn't work in factories or whatever like the women did in the last WW. Those positions will need to be filled since the women (at least some of them) will be fighting alongside us in this one.
~~~)-Steven----
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Post #9,305
9/15/01 3:07:23 PM
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here in west palm recruiters got no calls from anyone <46yo
absolute silence. Where are these gang bangin wannabe's when the truly tough are needed. Asked my 16yo, she goes "oh is there something like we could do?" Apparently joining up isnt one of them. Rather disgusted at some people at work. Was early on contacting mucky mucks to say we should assist at no charge rebuilding infrastructure. The call went oout to Verizon and the bells who said they would call us if/when needed. Told the crew and stated they were lookin for volunteers, I was going who else. Flat fscking silence, even from some people that really surprised me. they wernt ready to face that. I knew what I was asking and new that family, stuff like that would be very difficult just surprising is all.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
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