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New Steps Toward A Solution
1. Israeli style airport security, where every carry-on bag is hand checked. Perhaps we allow anyone to pass the security checkpoint, but each one has to pay $2-$5 every time they pass through to pay for the extra security.

2. All carry-on's above the size of a large binder (9x12x3 includes) are checked.

3. We should disallow the practice of purchasing an airline ticket or rental car or truck with cash. Two arabs were found in Ft. Worth and detained for having box cutter knives similar to those used by the hijackers, as well as many thousands of dollars in cash. The government needs to crack down on this now.

4. Fortify cockpit cabin doors.

5. Sky marshalls, armed with a two 9mm guns and several clips of ammo. He/She will need 2, incase he/she has to recruit another shooter.

6. Allow "registered" soldiers and law enforcement officers travel with guns.

7. The government should disallow cash transactions above $1000 and should lower the limit on "tracing" from $10,000 to $1000.

8. We should draft 18/19 year olds and station them at the borders to the U.S. We should also have a much stronger INS presence at airports and do background screens on individual before we let them in the country. There was an ABC Nightlight program about immigration a few weeks back and it turns out that bringing Mulims, Mexicans, etc. into the country is big business in Mexico. Many former drug cartel leaders have turned to smuggling to get people into the U.S. It's not that I don't like illegals, most are very nice people. But, we need to control our borders to ensure that know terrorists aren't even entering the country.
Glen Austin
New One disagreement
Cash: printed on each bill: This note is legal tender, both public and private. You *cannot* refuse payment in green money. Arguably, the current cash transaction monitoring policy is illegal. There are other means to monitor and/or arrest people violating the law.

Besides, how does that solve the problem? I've had three offers of Visa accounts in the mail this week. I pay with my new Visa, I take my carryon luggage onto the plane, and I wreak havoc. Happy happy Glen, he's prevented a legitimate purchaser and done squat to prevent terrorism.

From reports, it appears these terrorists did not pay cash for tickets but got tickets over the internet.

No carryon might not have prevented this atrocity, but it might have made it a little more difficult.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New Re: One disagreement
The government is already tracking all transactions over $10,000 for IRS Cheating purposes.

I get the free pre-approved card because they have a ton of data on me to show that I'm a good credit risk. People who are unknown to the credit system (like terrorists) don't get these kinds of offers.

BTW, the preapproved card offer situation may change soon because of the easy potential to steal someone else's offer and identity. Just sign the offer with the person's name and change the address. My mother is actually considering joining a class action suit to prevent the sending of pre-approved credit offers because of the risk of their identity being stolen simply by someone looking in your mailbox.

Some rental car agencies already don't accept cash. Actually, they will take the cash, but you still must provide a valid credit card and driver's license to rent the car. I know Hertz and Avis won't rent without a credit card because about 4 years ago, we took a trip to Colorado and forgot to take our credit card. We got to DIA and found that we had to use all of our traveller's checks AND rent from Alamo. Then we did have our debit card, so we just drew down our checking account to take our vacation, then took an advance on our credit card when we got home to cover our bills.

I realize that many people want to make their transactions "anonymous" but that just isn't possible anymore. Terrorism will drive us to an entirely electronic banking system within 5 years. Count my words.

Glen Austin
New I know about that damn 10,000 tracking
Violation of constitution and so forth but what does congress or the supreme court care about those things written on paper?

It may not be possible anymore, but wherever possible, I will try to enforce "legal tender, public and private". yes I know it's a lost cause
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New One Other Point, A Big One
The primary mechanism that the investigators are using to find persons collaborating with the terrorists are the credit card records.

That is how they found the flight instructor in Florida, and they have made many arrests off of the transaction records from the credit cards which were used. In other words, the credit card transactions are a paper trail which will allow us to find and prosecute many of those involved in this terrible crime. If the perpetrators of these crimes had completely used cash, there would be no record and none of the accomplices would be caught.

So, use your debit card when you can. Don't use cash (unless you're doing something that you don't want others to know about). My desire especially in the travel industry is that everyone will use a credit card, debit card, or some other trackable mechanism and people paying cash for such will be considered as suspicious. In other words, if you don't want records kept of your comings and goings, then where are you coming and going?

I'm sorry if you think that we have total and complete liberty here. We don't. And to make society safe from terrorists will have to give up even more liberties, at least for a time.

Freedom is a state of mind where you can go about society, buy, sell and travel, know that you are being watched, but also understand that you're living a good enough life that it doesn't matter if someone is watching you. If you have something to hide by paying cash, then you probably need to be looking at the wickedness inside yourself.

Ron Chapman, a very popular DJ formerly of KVIL radio (now with KLUV), used to say that you need to live your life as if you're always on camera, or on the radio, because you probably are. When you least expect it, your conversation is being recorded, or you're being watched. It's just a fact of life.

It's not fun for those who still want to pretend that things done in the shadows are still hidden, but they aren't.

You're being watched and listened to.
Glen Austin
New Point of question
Why is a debit card better than credit? Isn't the system for processing transations essentially the same? Iluminate me.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New Re: Point of question
Transactions are recorded and kept for both cards.

Two differences. In the U.S., Debit Cards have passwords called PIN (Personal Identification Number), Credit Cards rely on signature matching as the primary mechanism for finding fraud. Ironically, a was speaking to someone who visited Puerto Rico recently ( a network installer for a major company ), and was required to have a PIN number for his Credit Card. Because signatures of Credit Cards are only checked at a few stores I frequent, I'm a strong advocate of PIN numbers, but I want them to be 6-8 digits, not 4.

The other differences is that, with a debit card, the funds are deducted from your account, and you cannot get money if you don't have money in the account, unless you arrange in advance for "overdraft protection", which you pay for with a monthly fee. With a credit card, you are borrowing money at some of the highest interest rates in the country, and must pay the entire balance within 25 days, or pay somewhere between 12% and 25% interest. If you don't remember to make at least some payment each month by the due date, you are charged $29 for your tardiness (that one makes me the most angry of all), which in one case for me a couple of months ago was more than the total balance on my credit card. (I'm really angry about that, too.)

There are some other benefits for credit cards, like additional insurance, purchase protection, credit life option, etc. but in the end you're really paying for all those "features".

But, my point is, if everyone is using debit and credit cards, then the folks using cash are "different". I'm not really concerned about things like whether you use cash for groceries, but I'm really concerned about purchase of big ticket items and use of cash when travelling.



Glen Austin
New I have crap credit
went into a new bank cause I wasnt happy with the one I have had for years and was refused to open an account because I have bounced checks in the past. So I cannot travel by air? Thats free? thats safe? When did we surrender? And to whom? How about the millions of minimum wage workers who cant afford the fees the banks charge who cash paychecks in the stores go to aunt sallys funeral across the country? You are establishing a priviledged class here and I dont like it. I know lots of people in legitimate business that dont like banks and keep large amount of cash around. He left tuesday to report for duty.
just call me walkin bill :(
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Just out of curosity...
Precisely to whom are we surrendering? Nobody has stepped up to claim victory.
When I was a kid, we were \ufffdThe land of the free\ufffd (said so on the box.) You apparently wish to turn this into the land of the kindasorta safe but not too different than that which we previously said sucks.

Somebody around here has a Jefferson quote for a sig that I feel applies. Says that those who sacrifice freedom for security get neither and deserve it.

Feel free to change our society if you like and if you can. There are a number of things that could be changed for the better. I believe that it is a disservice to our society to surrender the liberties that have made us a society to be envied (there are those who don\ufffdt envy us. You see the staggering numbers of illegal immigrants to Biafra every day.)

I would prefer that we do not surrender until necessary, and possibly not then. I\ufffdm kinda pigheaded that way.

another couple coppers,
Hugh
New We resist this 'creeping gradualism' or,
we yield to expediency and prepare for years of "Emergency Decrees" - for the comfort and security of .. The State.

There's no end in sight for, all the neat little things which can be done to provide more of the illusion of 'safety' - as Washington, Jefferson said in just slightly different wordings (and Tom Paine, Rousseau, ____).

Life is not only unfair - it is un"safe". This may not have occurred to a culture largely self-obsessed, and mainly entertained via celebrity interviews, over past years and ending last Tuesday. Foreign news has been relegated to the truss ads section for decades, in all but specialty US media.

Note that the direction of this Administration, before last Tuesday -- was a pulling-back from world engagement, a return to isolationism -- all called, "being conservative" of course.

Now we see that we cannot proceed without the assistance of others. Ditto re the above thread ~ about, for your safety and convenience, we need a DNA sample for you to get actual cash for this check.

We will see all the POVs looked over, in coming months..



Ashton
New Policy change WRT hijacking
IMO the single step that would make the most significant change in future such attempts would be to treat all hijackings as acts of war.

The current policy is one of placating the hijacker and minimizing on-flight casualties.

The implications of the current incidents are that a hijacking be treated as an act of war, and a clear and present danger to civilian, industrial, military, and government sites. The objectives of flight crews and/or passengers must be to neutralize the hijackers. If this cannot be accomplished, the flight must be diverted. If this cannot be done, it must be destroyed.

It's not a happy picture.

Peace.
--
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]

What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?
New Touched on it in a different topic
If I am on a plane and someone tries to take control of it, I would rather take a knife or a bullet than permit the plane to be used as a weapon. Those people at JFK (when the authorities raided the plane) Friday thought the same and at least one was out of his seat when the SWAT team moved in.

The face of attempted hijacking has changed forever.
Remember flight 93. Rest in peace, Jeremy, Mark, and whoever else helped bring the plane down.
New I'd say that policy changed de facto on Tuesday.
Which I think means too - however many trained ones are still around, hoping to die and get the virgins: it will take in any next.. lots more armament than knives, to do this even once more (?)

But as several have noted, the best next tactic would be - something completely different [no pun intended]. I wouldn't even want to mention.. the many obvious, diabolical acts possible. (And I hope some ninny website doesn't start doing such, to show how clever the author is. Stifle it.)


A.
New Zippin' my mouth.
I've got a whole host of ideas, but they won't be able to get them out of me.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
New Pilots' union changes hijacker protocol
[link|http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/09/15/pilots_union/index.html|Pilots' union changes hijacker protocol]

--
Chris Altmann
New that change is likely
to have the most effect in the long term.
     Steps Toward A Solution - (gdaustin) - (15)
         One disagreement - (wharris2) - (6)
             Re: One disagreement - (gdaustin) - (1)
                 I know about that damn 10,000 tracking - (wharris2)
             One Other Point, A Big One - (gdaustin) - (3)
                 Point of question - (wharris2) - (1)
                     Re: Point of question - (gdaustin)
                 I have crap credit - (boxley)
         Just out of curosity... - (hnick) - (1)
             We resist this 'creeping gradualism' or, - (Ashton)
         Policy change WRT hijacking - (kmself) - (3)
             Touched on it in a different topic - (wharris2)
             I'd say that policy changed de facto on Tuesday. - (Ashton) - (1)
                 Zippin' my mouth. - (inthane-chan)
         Pilots' union changes hijacker protocol - (altmann) - (1)
             that change is likely - (Simon_Jester)

SHUT THAT BLOODY BOUZOUKI UP!
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