Post #91,156
3/24/03 6:09:29 PM
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Very nice.
Although I'm not sure what he meant by letting others comment.
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Post #91,161
3/24/03 6:37:47 PM
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Me either.
I sort of interpreted it as "I'm going to stand back behind this teflon shield and watch the regulars rip him a new one" but I'm willing to be proven wrong.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
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Post #91,513
3/25/03 6:29:10 PM
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Well, my interpretation was right
As seen by Mr. St. Onge's response to my original letter. I've sent a rebuttal to his rebut, but it's quite long. I don't know if Jerry will post it or not.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
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Post #91,614
3/25/03 10:09:10 PM
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Judging from his links, good luck.
I think you've got another Marlowe there.
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Post #91,616
3/25/03 10:12:12 PM
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It will be interesting.
My first reply was returned by JP as "way too long to post" -- which it was, coming in at about 3000 words. So I edited it, which I'm afraid may lose some effectiveness because I can't go into as many specifics specifics. On the other hand, I can't blame him -- I do love the sound of my own keyboard...
At any rate, I allowed that some of those articles may provide enough information to suggest the possibility, but none of them offer anything concrete enough to justify an invasion, by any stretch of the imagination.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
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Post #91,707
3/26/03 1:16:30 AM
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About oneof those links -
Read [link|http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020325fa_FACT1| this one]. It's quite long, a New Yorker essay exactly one year old... THE GREAT TERROR by JEFFREY GOLDBERG In northern Iraq, there is new evidence of Saddam Hussein's genocidal war on the Kurds\ufffdand of his possible ties to Al Qaeda. Issue of 2002-03-25 Posted 2002-03-25
In the late morning of March 16, 1988, an Iraqi Air Force helicopter appeared over the city of Halabja, which is about fifteen miles from the border with Iran. The Iran-Iraq War was then in its eighth year, and Halabja was near the front lines. At the time, the city was home to roughly eighty thousand Kurds, who were well accustomed to the proximity of violence to ordinary life. Like most of Iraqi Kurdistan, Halabja was in perpetual revolt against the regime of Saddam Hussein, and its inhabitants were supporters of the peshmerga, the Kurdish fighters whose name means "those who face death." ... ... ... [about 60% down the page]: If these charges are true, it would mean that the relationship between Saddam's regime and Al Qaeda is far closer than previously thought.
When I asked the director of the twenty-four-hundred-man Patriotic Union intelligence service why he was allowing me to interview his prisoners, he told me that he hoped I would carry this information to American intelligence officials. "The F.B.I. and the C.I.A. haven't come out yet," he told me. His deputy added, "Americans are going to Somalia, the Philippines, I don't know where else, to look for terrorists. But this is the field, here." Anya Guilsher, a spokeswoman for the C.I.A., told me last week that as a matter of policy the agency would not comment on the activities of its officers. James Woolsey, a former C.I.A. director and an advocate of overthrowing the Iraqi regime, said, "It would be a real shame if the C.I.A.'s substantial institutional hostility to Iraqi democratic resistance groups was keeping it from learning about Saddam's ties to Al Qaeda in northern Iraq."
The possibility that Saddam could supply weapons of mass destruction to anti-American terror groups is a powerful argument among advocates of "regime change," as the removal of Saddam is known in Washington. These critics of Saddam argue that his chemical and biological capabilities, his record of support for terrorist organizations, and the cruelty of his regime make him a threat that reaches far beyond the citizens of Iraq.
"He's the home address for anyone wanting to make or use chemical or biological weapons," Kanan Makiya, an Iraqi dissident, said. Makiya is the author of "Republic of Fear," a study of Saddam's regime. "He's going to be the person to worry about. He's got the labs and the know-how. He's hellbent on trying to find a way into the fight, without announcing it."
On the surface, a marriage of Saddam's secular Baath Party regime with the fundamentalist Al Qaeda seems unlikely. His relationship with secular Palestinian groups is well known; both Abu Nidal and Abul Abbas, two prominent Palestinian terrorists, are currently believed to be in Baghdad. But about ten years ago Saddam underwent something of a battlefield conversion to a fundamentalist brand of Islam.
"It was gradual, starting the moment he decided on the invasion of Kuwait," in June of 1990, according to Amatzia Baram, an Iraq expert at the University of Haifa. "His calculation was that he needed people in Iraq and the Arab world\ufffdas well as God\ufffdto be on his side when he invaded. After he invaded, the Islamic rhetorical style became overwhelming"\ufffdso overwhelming, Baram continued, that a radical group in Jordan began calling Saddam "the New Caliph Marching from the East." This conversion, cynical though it may be, has opened doors to Saddam in the fundamentalist world. He is now a prime supporter of the Palestinian Islamic Jihad and of Hamas, paying families of suicide bombers ten thousand dollars in exchange for their sons' martyrdom. This is part of Saddam's attempt to harness the power of Islamic extremism and direct it against his enemies. ... ... ...
Anyone else here willing to wade through this all? I'm willing to be reeducated re. well-hidden ties between Saddam and al-Q; battlefield Conversion ?!? -- while continuing to note the paucity of anything you could call evidence, yet released by Dubya & Co. That this entire narrative is a fantastic invention of the author: I'll deem remote. How ever to verify such a detailed mass of material so perfectly unreported in the West, except in vague allusions. We certainly won't.. Ashton
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Post #91,725
3/26/03 6:30:31 AM
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Their supposed tie
is that Al Queda used Saddam's father-in-law to purchase what may be chemical weapons which were smuggled out of Iraq. The thing is, there is nothing in the article to indicate that this was done with official Iraqi blessing. They used drug runners and smugglers to get the stuff over the border. It could very well have been the father-in-law using his connections to run a lucrative side business.
It's a great article insofar as it describes how Hussein launched a chemical attack against the Kurdish people living in Iraq, and a great article insofar as it describes how the Kurds have been historically screwed, over and over again, but not so hot as proof that Al Queda and Iraq are in cahoots.
"We are all born originals -- why is it so many of us die copies?" - Edward Young
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Post #91,962
3/26/03 6:11:44 PM
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~ My take, too..
There's certainly enough material there however - were the unThinkable to occur: (One of the) Saddam(s) is captured; next, war crimes trial.
Oh: in the International Court we don't believe in, unless we get 100% veto over its decisions. Except.. when it's convenient to pretend that we wish to hear its decisions.
{Oh Gawd} Bushie on NPR giving a 12 yo pep-talk about "how certain it is that We Shall Win" to: soldiers! And after it's declared that we have...
Lies. Lying - our most important Product Packaging.
A.
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