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New Never implied you "can't create".
Just observed that, what you *won't create* - whether monstrous, cute or just blonde? - will be: the mind comprehending itself. Nor the brain - to any extent that the aim of this topic is, to "extend" the capabilities of mind/brain (!)

It's just mental masturbation - akin to that old chestnut of, "pushing a grand piano down the stairs in the dark" -- and guessing what it might have looked like (never having seen a piano). (ie def'n of nuclear physics)

(Doesn't mean you can't get a grant though - of course!)



A.
New Again, so what???
Ashton writes:
[Never implied you "can't create".] Just observed that, what you *won't create* - whether monstrous, cute or just blonde? - will be: the mind comprehending itself. Nor the brain - to any extent that the aim of this topic is, to "extend" the capabilities of mind/brain (!)
Funny... I could have *sworn* that what you were on about was how we couldn't create "true" intelligence -- like these old non-self-comprehending brains of ours -- in the first place. Who put the bar that high, that it had to have a "higher _order_" of intelligence???

Or, let's clarify the back-thread first: Do you, or don't you, admit the possibility of creating a "mind" that has the *same* old kind of intelligence we do -- only *more* of it? And, perhaps no less importantly, A) Wasn't *that* what we (and Hawking) were talking about, and B) Why can't you write just a *teeny* bit more clearly, so we wouldn't have to wonder shit like this all the time?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything -- Except, Often, WTF Ashton Means
New So This: only a primitive facsimile. Period.
It will calculate a lot faster and solve chess problems faster - by brute force. And lots of other trivial shit. We can only 'create' what we can draw blueprints for - random connections of transistors gets - Thevenin's law and noise.

What it won't *ever* have is.. Eureka! Ah I See [very much more than perhaps, was hoped for], like the dream of a snake eating its tail, said to have catalyzed the discovery of the benzene ring. It won't be fucking *alive*, Dr. Frankenstein.

And mainly - Eureka! is an *emotional* response to a solution of a mostly-intellectual problem. Nuance - forget other than the literal, even without the 'ephemeral', and all those similar words you find rilly offensive because: they aren't concrete.
Did I mention love? Your machine couldn't even 'love' a cat. (Even really retarded homo-saps respond to love)

No: we couldn't come close, even to matching the functioning of a nit-wit's brain! IMhO.

Face it: we don't know SHIT about how our brain/minds, our 'person'alities 'work', how we arrive at bizarre associative (for one) speculative new ideas and are later, unable even to say how it "dawned on us that ___". Do you really need more examples of why this is a preposterous idea, however a cute wish?


Ashton
And if you want me to stick to your fav concrete words - it's gonna be insufferably dull - like your proto-robot is guaranteed to be. Life is nuance or it's McDonalds digital.
New try the other way
take that brilliant machine, overamp the juice, kick it a few times and introduce pain,pee on the keyboard wouldnt, couldnt that recreate a piano that fell down the stairs in the dark? Machines do feel love, has any of your bikes gone above and beyond because you have asked them to and they responded? Some of my cars have many times.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Ya got me Bill..
Yup, there was that time, over the ton.. when that moving van suddenly appeared and 4 brakes must have exceeded 1 G, somehow.. but that of course was a Vincent, not just a machine.

:-\ufffd
New like me and chevys the dang things will not run for me
buicks and olds will run, fords and chryco will go the extra mile fer me. My best bud in AK it is chevs, he gets into a ford it pukes gags and breaks down. I remember a delta 88 olds pulling a 21 ft travel trailer in subzero temps halfway between ft nelson and ft st john on the alcan (about 120 miles either direction) a stone peirced the radiator, at the same time when I gassed up I neglected to check the oil. The oil light came on, no water, boiling over, no place to stop ran the 120 miles to town. Topped the oil got a 5 gal can of water and pulled that trailer to reno nv(about 2200 miles) with a bad rod knock. Loved the car, had to sell it, the guy wanted it just for the tranny, paid his money and the car siezed and the tranny fried half a mile from the house. Yup cars have feelings, I dont know how that translates to AI but there must be a way.
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Understanding != Building
>> It will calculate a lot faster and solve chess problems faster - by brute force. And lots of other trivial shit. We can only 'create' what we can draw blueprints for - random connections of transistors gets - Thevenin's law and noise. <<

Neural nets and genetic algorithms have produced many results which were not directly in the "blueprints". Some G.A's even have evolved a *language* for simulated organisms to communicate in order to achieve a genetically-selected goal. The researchers had not deciphered the language yet (I'll see if I can find a link.)

Weird stuff.

I would have to agree that it may be possible to create an intelligent being without fully understanding how it works. However, the less you know, the more surprises there may be, good or bad. You know, Frenkenstien.

________________
oop.ismad.com
New Ah. The "we don't know SHIT and never will" argument.
"The outcomes are indeterminate, therefore the system is not reproducible."

And similar nursery logic. Guess I'll just have to disagree with you on that--no sense explaining to he-who-has-already-concluded-understanding-is-impossible. Way to have an open mind, Ash.

Maybe you should read up on the subject, Watson--we're several man-centuries of work beyond brute-force and blueprints. Get a subscription to just one of [link|http://www-psych.stanford.edu/cogsci/journals.html|these] before talking more on this subject. It hasn't been a philosophical discussion for decades.

Either that, or give a mathematical proof for "it won't *ever* have.. Eureka!" You're not backing up your statements with anything more than homo-sap pride and machine paranoia.
That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
New Proof exists only in the mind of a mathematician.
Some folk have faith in a god; some in the idea there is none such (or at least not in the forms thus far popularly catalogued). Some even imagine they can 'prove' any of the above.

Your impressive list of organs 'about' human psych merely demonstrates how Interesting is the Question. No? I agree: there *IS* much lore. There is maybe almost as much lore there, as re economics - some even imagine possession of an algorithm for assuring 'prosperity' (for various definitions, weighted in the eye of the beholder).

One person in a forum has given his algorithm for ~ "what is reason-able". No comment.

My 'faith' here is from self- and other observation, that (~~)

A. The intellect is ever so much better at revealing the false - in some effort to see beyond (intellect's view?) than in ever revealing these high Truths, Questions which so preoccupy the writers of manuals for human conduct.

B. The lower cannot see the higher is a principle, obviously conceived by men - as obviously: aiming a bit beyond ideas merely deducible from some arbitrary postulates - axioms created, so as to nicely circumscribe some problem we defined today. Our laboratory always requires these axioms - we call that, "the scientific method". It has great utility in most matters which can be reproduced, observed independently by many - and the meaning of the data debated. Some places are extra-laboratory, and are not deduced via this methodology.

C. What this means is left to the total experience and accumulated insights of any reader of the principle. As a 'principle' it is 'true' only insofar as it has utility (else mere arbitrary dogma).

I believe the principle has demonstrated utility in ferreting out the false, often intermixed with the er 'conditionally true'? And I think it demonstrates by simplest parallel:

The 'mind' (as we call that which is sentient within) cannot 'know itself'. It can and does: collect lore. We know something. I merely call that shit - compared to what is not-known and likely cannot be known. It is then, a qualitative observation about the limits of ~ 'accumulated data' of whatever quantity. Must 'meta' also be defined? Good luck.

As to blueprints. This thread began from Hawking's dream of a meta-brain IIRC. I suggest that one cannot 'create' a meta-brain unless one knows enough of the workings of a 'brain' so as to have any idea what 'improvement' might mean! let alone: where to apply "the patch".

If that's insufficient to comprehend my 'meaning' - please feel free to 'prove' the possibility of proof or disproof of the thesis. Or - never 'mind'; there's nothing to 'win' but some sort of tautology anyway..


Ashton
New Okay, Christian, I tried.
I'm going to ignore any conversation you begin along these lines from now on, Mr. Brown, since it's obvious you won't be nailed down to anything.

"The lower cannot see the higher is a principle...left to the total experience and accumulated insights of any reader of the principle...I believe the principle has demonstrated utility in ferreting out the false...The 'mind' cannot 'know itself'."

Tautology, indeed. IOW, "the axiom stands because I can construct a consistent theorem-domain out of it". Well, whoop-de-do. There's lots of consistent domains out there that don't match reality.
That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
New Probably a good plan, especially when you toss in the R
word. Reality! indeed.

We'd likely agree on the general steps to produce a new machine, once we had the specs and knew the technology.

And while I'd agree that much human behavior is more machine-like than umm Wise (?) we're not going to reach agreement that, you could model a search for a human mind along the same 'theorem-domain' as [that which creates 'theorem-domains']. Love to nail it down for you all logically parsed, but that wouldn't be reasonable. Or possible.

(Now if I said, it violates causality!, we could go directly to That theological principle, but likely as fruitlessly)

Sorry - not everything that is, can be explained by physics alone. Sentience is one such as cannot. But by all means: place your bets. It's as fun a game as any, but my bet remains: you'll get a calculator which could never feel.. Eureka!. We don't know shit about feel, especially. You'll never create a thing which realizes, I. Am. Never..




Ashton
New Aren't you just riding off into cloud-cuckoo-land?
Ashton goes clip-clop into the sunset:
Probably a good plan, especially when you toss in the R word. Reality! indeed.
Here's a simple suggestion for a definition: "Reality" is where people, complete with more or less "reasonable" and "wise" minds, build machines and shared theories and possibly (in my so far un-disproven opinion) minds.

Logic is a very good and useful tool -- no more than a tool, and not absolutely always the best tool, but very good and useful nevertheless -- out there in the "cold, harsh land of reality".

It's the outside tangible world; not the cloud-cuckoo-land inside our heads, where we build all kinds of more or less (and this is possibly the only thing that's truly "unknowable", at least to everyone except the owner of each head) un-reasonable and un-wise kooky theories and other dogmatic edifices.

Logic isn't required in there -- not that I can see how that in and of itself is supposed to ensure that the quotient of "reason and "wisdom" is going to be any higher...


And while I'd agree that much human behavior is more machine-like than umm Wise (?) we're not going to reach agreement that, you could model a search for a human mind along the same 'theorem-domain' [...]
But who said we're searching for a human mind, exclusively?

Haven't you asserted that it's impossible to create any "intelligent" mind, or did I misread you completely? (Or are you just going by the comfortably anthropocentric -- and completely circular! -- definition that any "intelligence" has to be "human"?)


Love to nail it down for you all logically parsed, but that wouldn't be reasonable. Or possible.
He asserts.

Again.

With no more support -- logical OR "reasonable" -- than before.

I see; "proof" by repeated assertion. Veery "reasonable". Veeery "wise".

At least you seem to be admitting (by implication/omission)that it isn't logical...

Unfortunately, I don't see how the mere absence of logic is supposed to guarantee that it is in stead "reasonable", or "wise".

There's lots of shit that is neither, you know.

Care to explain...?


(Now if I said, it violates causality!, we could go directly to That theological principle, but likely as fruitlessly)
Ah yes, "fruitlessly", indeed...

Like your petrified-into-empty-dogma "theology" about the supposed -- but never, ever, logically proven, nor "wisely" explained, nor even "reasonably" defended -- "uniqueness" of the human mind, you mean?

How, exactly, is your new-age-style mystical blathering different from the mystical blathering of that reverend "Foulwell" you so love to hate?
   Christian R. Conrad
The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything About Un-Wise Un-Reason
New When you're stopped - it looks like everyone else gallops.
Here's a simple suggestion for a definition: "Reality" is where people,
complete with more or less "reasonable" and "wise" minds, build machines
and shared theories and possibly (in my so far un-disproven opinion) minds.
Who said any differently about 'what usually we do'? I *said* - you'd get a machine. Not a human mind - let very much alone: an 'improved' human mind. (But when you call our daily activities 'reality', if you mean that in the highest scale possible (?) Well, that would be a too long digression to explore. Some other time, though unlikely.)

Logic is a very good and useful tool -- no more than a tool, and not
absolutely always the best tool, but very good and useful nevertheless --
out there in the "cold, harsh land of reality".

It's the outside tangible world; not the cloud-cuckoo-land inside our heads,
where we build all kinds of more or less (and this is possibly the only thing
that's truly "unknowable", at least to everyone except the owner of each
head) un-reasonable and un-wise kooky theories and other dogmatic
edifices.
Who said logic is not extremely useful? Useful to whom: someone, someone who perceives, thinks, feels, possesses self-awareness. Did you imagine that the concept 'logic' has existence anywhere outside the mentioned receptacle?
Logic isn't required in there -- not that I can see how that in and of itself is
supposed to ensure that the quotient of "reason and "wisdom" is going to
be any higher...
Possibly you can imagine some definition of 'reason' or 'wisdom' operating with no logic - but I think we're heading for epistemology city. That or, you are looking for a complete and 'logical' definition of both those concepts, too?

And while I'd agree that much human behavior is more machine-like
than umm Wise (?) we're not going to reach agreement that, you
could model a search for a human mind along the same
'theorem-domain' [...]

But who said we're searching for a human mind, exclusively?

Haven't you asserted that it's impossible to create any "intelligent" mind, or
did I misread you completely? (Or are you just going by the comfortably
anthropocentric -- and completely circular! -- definition that any
"intelligence" has to be "human"?)
Read much? like the link to Hawking's words?
It is vital to develop
ways of keeping
biological systems
superior to electronic ones, Hawking
continued. Humans must develop an
interface that allows the human brain to be
directly connected to a computer, so that
the artificial brain contributes to human
intelligence, rather than opposing it.
I'll try to say it slowly: Before you can construct an interface to a biological *system, you must fucking understand! exactly-enough, how that system operates.

* and if Mr. Hawking or you imagine - because we have this neat word system, it 'means' that: we Can "understand everything we call a system", next: I demur. And the simplest reason -in both senses- I can give you why it is obvious that, "the mind cannot understand itself" is the "reason of scale" I mentioned. And if it is your habit to label every concept which you do not understand - or believe not worth your effort to try, as some sort of "new-age-style mystical blathering" - then, tough shit. I'm not required to teach the determinedly anti-clueful, any more than you are.

And you behave as if there *were* some nice logical explanation of every concept (the apparent mind-language) including but not limited to: reason, wisdom, sentience, self awareness and no doubt: I Am too!

You might as well say, "if *I* can't parse it into bite-sized serial chunks" - it doesn't exist. In which case, neither does love, nor is there any need for those other words you find distinctly uncomfortable: evanescent, ephemeral, ineffable - and likely sublime too..

But I think you circumscribe quite well, your own view of it all.. about here:
Like your petrified-into-empty-dogma "theology" about the supposed --
but never, ever, logically proven, nor "wisely" explained, nor even
"reasonably" defended -- "uniqueness" of the human mind, you mean?


There's no one capable of "wisely explaining" *anything* - to the smugly closed and locked mind - especially such a mind as casually dismisses! the limitless qualities which differentiate a human from any machine we make or ever could.

And if that still eludes being "intuitively obvious" to you, then perhaps yours IS such a mind all-unaware - as might meet the specs for SH's proposal, and we can surely ready that limited-edition for an interface - maybe about the time Windoze becomes stable?

Christian R. Conrad

The Man Who Knows Fucking Everything About Un-Wise Un-Reason
Not this time - I demur and say, "doesn't know shit even about what it means to be a human Being".

(I have to suppose this has been an intentional exercise in futility - on which you thought I just.. might.. be teased into biting, via sophomoric twittings. Nahhh. :-\ufffd )
New uh oh here comes ox gibbering with pitchfork :)
quote
it's the outside tangible world; not the cloud-cuckoo-land inside our heads, where we build all kinds of more or less (and this is possibly the only thing that's truly "unknowable", at least to everyone except the owner of each head) un-reasonable and un-wise kooky theories and other dogmatic edifices.
end quote
Holding Grey's Anatomy in one hand, the retinal nerves present a 2 dimentional upside down image to the brain.
So everything you view is flat and upside down. Your reality is an interpretation of tactile senses, not what is actually there. Reality is a knowledgable guess based on bumping and falling down. Not a measurable experience. A blind hooker might think she is eating a hot dog several times a day and complains to the pimp about the mustard. Since reality cannot be measured except by agreement, a machine that measures according to our standards might just think it is slurping clams.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Spare-time generator for you
[link|http://www.wrldpwr.com/wrldpwr/javascriptzen.html|http://www.wrldpwr....riptzen.html]
That's her, officer! That's the woman that programmed me for evil!
New Love It.
Pity that the messages from the sublime are immune to highlights:

Who is to say the Panda would not be vengeful
What are the chances?
Confront the great conductor and ask him, "what is your function?"

We mean absolutely no disrespect for adherents of any religion or philosophy. The point of the Zen Generator is to have fun. If it's to make fun of anybody, it would be to make fun of society at large, which tends to treat religion and philosophy as consumer products, as products that can be generated automatically, by machines. The type of reductio ad absurdum satire we're practicing here has a long and venerated history. If nevertheless you find yourself offended, please send me email and I'll see if I can talk you down off the ledge.
As good an answer to Foulwell bin-Laden as anything.. :-)
New Actually not even there
Mathematical demonstrations are as airtight as is a hand proof that software will run correctly when you are not allowed to compile it. In other words, there is no such thing as proof.

With that established, useful conversation needs to posit the existence of a shared reality, accepted by all participants. That means that a childlike refusal to accept the outside world can render anyone utterly immune to outside input.

Some people mistake this childishness for profound wisdom. I do not. On the opposite extreme I don't accept the blind acceptance of conventional belief systems as wisdom either. Instead I try to hit the middle ground, accept a shared reality so that communication is possible, but attempt to remain aware of what has been accepted as well...

Cheers,
Ben
New man can create multiple AI (billy milligan) :(
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
     Darwin Bytes - (tablizer) - (27)
         Also Hawking on that site, re robots - (Ashton) - (26)
             Can't keep up - (tablizer) - (24)
                 Think you're right: he means that. - (Ashton) - (23)
                     But who ever said creating has to mean "understanding"??? - (CRConrad) - (22)
                         Replication is to creation :: as ? - (Ashton) - (21)
                             We already have Species Creation for Dummies: - (tseliot) - (20)
                                 Yes, one can.. treat *machine* experimentation - (Ashton) - (19)
                                     Again, I think you're stuck in a rut. - (tseliot) - (18)
                                         Never implied you "can't create". - (Ashton) - (17)
                                             Again, so what??? - (CRConrad) - (16)
                                                 So This: only a primitive facsimile. Period. - (Ashton) - (15)
                                                     try the other way - (boxley) - (2)
                                                         Ya got me Bill.. - (Ashton) - (1)
                                                             like me and chevys the dang things will not run for me - (boxley)
                                                     Understanding != Building - (tablizer)
                                                     Ah. The "we don't know SHIT and never will" argument. - (tseliot) - (10)
                                                         Proof exists only in the mind of a mathematician. - (Ashton) - (8)
                                                             Okay, Christian, I tried. - (tseliot) - (6)
                                                                 Probably a good plan, especially when you toss in the R - (Ashton) - (5)
                                                                     Aren't you just riding off into cloud-cuckoo-land? - (CRConrad) - (2)
                                                                         When you're stopped - it looks like everyone else gallops. - (Ashton)
                                                                         uh oh here comes ox gibbering with pitchfork :) - (boxley)
                                                                     Spare-time generator for you - (tseliot) - (1)
                                                                         Love It. - (Ashton)
                                                             Actually not even there - (ben_tilly)
                                                         man can create multiple AI (billy milligan) :( -NT - (boxley)
             I can sort of see where Hawking could find that attractive.. - (Ric Locke)

...and if a hundred!
279 ms