Post #89,116
3/18/03 2:13:21 PM
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I am finding a unique set of problems...
With discussing the Merits of Debian with other distributions...
I am getting alot of Deb-O-Snobbian type of comments... I then start batting for the Conectiva RPM distro with similar results of Snob...
I just don't get it... I have even pinned down a serious group of Gentoo'ers... The developement group :)... they just don't/won't reply.
I give credit to Karsten for the Arguement base... and use many of his elements to ask these people how they "manage" the particulars... the thread ends THERE or turns into a religious Jihad Flame war... which I then bow out of...
I have even had Whole threads I started or replied to removed because they were seen as inflamatory... I was using very well thought out, well written, well documented, reasonable non-agressive wording in most everyone of the discussions...
I am flabbergasted... why does this happen.
I have even done a blow for blow discussion with myself... Policy v. non-Policy, .deb v. .rpm, critical recoveries (like rebuilding /var after a fit of dyslexic typing)
WTF, GIVES? Is this going to be another type of grassroots "war"...
b4k4^2
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | | [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|Writing on wall, Microsoft to develop apps for Linux by 2004] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
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Post #89,134
3/18/03 2:40:17 PM
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First Debian Experience
I had no trouble installing it. Of course, with a lot of experience, I knew what the questions meant and what the implications of yes/no were.
That said, I found the install program to be on the order of something generated by a script-kiddie. Compared to something like YaST's package maintenance interface (ncurses and rpm), dselect is a bad bad joke.
Once installed, it's Linux. Whoopee.
What you are running into is yet more PC bullshit. I'm finished with Debian - there is no point to it, other than the empty ones made by the PC freak-geeks.
-drl
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Post #89,141
3/18/03 2:58:04 PM
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Okies... I guess you really don't realize...
It is the install once, incremental updating that makes Debian wonderful.
BTW, you rememeber the post about me corrupting the /var files system and not having a backup anymore?
Well, the machine wasn't re-installed... the /var filesystem was made again and rebuilt using debian ONLY tools. BTW, do you know which machine it is that this happened on?
The one you are currently accessing by using *Z*...
hmmm.... makes you wonder doesn't it?
Now, I also have non-standard packe installed for Postgreql... 7.2.3, but Woody only has 7.2.1. Testing has 7.3.2...
You see Debconf isn;t the best option, but it does work better than Yast, it does work better than emerge on Gentoo, it does work better at getting dependancies satisfied...
Use Debian and REALLY use it:
apt-get update
apt-get install aptitude
aptitude
And just browse the thing available...
Also for Ss&Gs do an apt-get -u upgrade
I don't believe you even gave a first chance... try it for 2 week and use it... see what you are missing apt-get it... once X is up install "synaptic", nice front-end for apt in X.
b4k4^2
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | | [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|Writing on wall, Microsoft to develop apps for Linux by 2004] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
|
Post #89,153
3/18/03 3:13:49 PM
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deselect does suck.
So don't use it.
Homework time: install something like Kobo Deluxe on your SuSE system (I don't care if you don't want to use it -- it's homework).
Now do it on your Debian box (hint: it's "apt-get install kobodeluxe").
Now tell us there isn't a difference.
And of course "it's just Linux". It always has been, and no one has told you anything different. The *maintenance* of an installed system is where the difference is. Until you understand that, "a lot of experience" means exactly two things: jack, and shit, respectively.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #89,157
3/18/03 3:25:40 PM
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Re: deselect does suck.
And of course "it's just Linux". It always has been, and no one has told you anything different. The *maintenance* of an installed system is where the difference is.
100% agreed.
Sadly, UNIX is incapable of really dealing with this issue because of library issues. It's no better (but no worse) than Windows and DLLs.
Therefore, no matter how cool your installer (I have yet to experience any real issues with RPM when installing SuSE distributed packages) eventually you will get into a knot if you rely of some possibly carelessly assembled third party package.
The only real solution is to go to vendor UNIX, and use one of their known-good configurations and vendor-specific tools (like SAM on HP-UX), and stick to vendor-certified software.
Or, produce a modern OS with a better approach to dependencies.
-drl
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Post #89,161
3/18/03 3:32:51 PM
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Missing the point, and dodging the issue.
Go install kobo like I said. Then come back and tell us it isn't better. Therefore, no matter how cool your installer (I have yet to experience any real issues with RPM when installing SuSE distributed packages) eventually you will get into a knot if you rely of some possibly carelessly assembled third party package. Except that that doesn't happen with Debian. That's the difference. You still don't seem to understand. The only real solution is to go to vendor UNIX, and use one of their known-good configurations and vendor-specific tools (like SAM on HP-UX), and stick to vendor-certified software. Please explain to me the difference between this, and using Debian stable. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #89,166
3/18/03 3:37:56 PM
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Somebody makes the rules
Therefore, the perceived coolness is just an artifact of some ruling body somewhere (policy wonks).
There is no difference - other than the guarantee that you get for support from a vendor, as opposed to an altruistic (one hopes) body of geeks.
A real OS would have a code and development model that would make such problems moot.
-drl
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Post #89,169
3/18/03 3:41:55 PM
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Missing the point, and dodging the issue.
Put your money where your mouth is. Install kobo. Report back. perceived coolness WHAT "perceived coolness"? How many times do I have to tell you, I don't run Debian because it's "cool", I run it BECAUSE IT IS EASIER TO MAINTAIN. Apparently, Debian policy works, because It Just Works. You have already made up your mind, however, so you haven't bothered to try it out. Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #89,174
3/18/03 3:49:33 PM
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Which one do you want?
A: No programs ever share code. Evertyhing goes in its own directory and never touches anything else. Dependencies are a non-issue, because everything is self-contained.
B: Programs can share code. There is a mechanism for rsolving dependencies and versions. This mechanism is either:
1: A technical mechanism. Users can't break it, but they also can't do anything not anticipated by the mechanism.
2: A policy mechanism. Debian.
===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #89,165
3/18/03 3:37:44 PM
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Umm ... wrong
Sadly, UNIX is incapable of really dealing with this issue because of library issues. But Linux is. Specifically, Debian is. It's done with ... wait for it ... POLICY! Just tell me how many times you need it pointed out that no one (here anyway) is saying that the magic lies in the package format. I'll write a script to post it that many times. Therefore, no matter how cool your installer (I have yet to experience any real issues with RPM when installing SuSE distributed packages) eventually you will get into a knot if you rely of some possibly carelessly assembled third party package. First, you're mixing up the installer and the maintenance again. But more importantly, if the third party package is carelessly assembled it never goes into the Debian tree. That's what the POLICY says. ===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
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Post #89,155
3/18/03 3:17:18 PM
3/18/03 3:19:26 PM
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*Which* install program?
That said, I found the install program to be on the order of something generated by a script-kiddie. Which one? You know there are several, right? And that the default one is explicitly tailored for ultimate portability, not ease of use? Compared to something like YaST's package maintenance interface (ncurses and rpm), dselect is a bad bad joke. Well now you're comparing the installer to a package maintenance interface, which isn't even the same thing. But if you are talking about package maintenance, how much simpler can it be then, "apt-get install galeon"? [Edit was a typo] ===
Implicitly condoning stupidity since 2001.
Edited by drewk
March 18, 2003, 03:19:26 PM EST
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Post #89,158
3/18/03 3:26:37 PM
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Re: *Which* install program?
It wasn't ease (or disease) of use - it was really very easy because I knew my hardware. It was just - amateurish.
-drl
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Post #89,162
3/18/03 3:33:11 PM
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Stop dodging the questions.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #89,175
3/18/03 3:50:11 PM
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I really don't care anymore
UNIX is almost 40 years old. Why isn't something better available by now?
-drl
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Post #89,176
3/18/03 3:51:31 PM
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Re: I really don't care anymore
There is.
It's called VMS.
Now bugger off back to Windows and the land of "found new hardware".
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #89,178
3/18/03 3:52:42 PM
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Then why bother
... flinging shit in here in the first place? Finish the discussion you started, or don't start it in the first place.
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #89,159
3/18/03 3:29:43 PM
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Re: First Debian Experience
I had no trouble installing it. Of course, with a lot of experience, I knew what the questions meant and what the implications of yes/no were. Bow down to your mighty experience. That said, I found the install program to be on the order of something generated by a script-kiddie. Compared to something like YaST's package maintenance interface (ncurses and rpm), dselect is a bad bad joke. Er, bollocks, basically. The stock Debian installer is portable across 11 architectures, and there are a number of graphical replacements for the point'n'drool crowd. dselect sucks. DON'T USE IT THEN. There's plenty of alternatives - aptitude, synaptic, gnome-apt. Once installed, it's Linux. Whoopee. That's the WHOLE POINT, bozo. What you are running into is yet more PC bullshit. I'm finished with Debian - there is no point to it, other than the empty ones made by the PC freak-geeks. As stated before, YOUR perfect operating system is [link|http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp|here]. Go away, Ross. You don't want Linux. You're just throwing your own faeces around. I've no doubt if you had an Alpha in the house you'd be bitching about VMS in the exact same way.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #89,140
3/18/03 2:51:56 PM
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10-20?
Where are these various discussions taking place, Greg? Frankly, I've got NFC what you're referring to, or where. I'd presume some sort of web board. \r\n\r\n Again. Context: use it or lose it. And a little goes a long way. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #89,152
3/18/03 3:11:39 PM
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It was more of a question of how to combat...
this type of problem... not so much as an asking for help...
More or less, people just shutdown replying...
[link|http://www.linuxcompatible.org/|Linux Compatible]... I have had my posts removed and changed by moderators. Whole threads with comments in them...
And once we get down to the Meat-Grinder he goes and admit he glossed over my re-butt and removed it. and about 2/3rds of that thread... Along with 5 other threads completely with me politely asking critical questions of Other Distros. Question like the twelve or so that are the right now in: [link|http://www.linuxcompatible.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=382|Linux Distributions. Civilized Policy vs. Non-Policy debate]...
Some of that is edited as I don;t want a flood right now on the new machine... but STILL... Most of your content is there...
b4k4^2
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | | [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|Writing on wall, Microsoft to develop apps for Linux by 2004] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
|
Post #89,163
3/18/03 3:35:12 PM
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Censorship...
...is not acceptable. I'd publicize the fact you're being quashed, and hightail it outta there. \r\n\r\n I've had the same problem (still uncorrected) with [link|http://www.lugod.org/|LUGOD] and Peter Jay Salzman. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #89,192
3/18/03 4:21:36 PM
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Favor of Greg, Ross.
When you're linking stuff like that, pointers to the [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyDebianRocks|WhyDebianRocks] (or other appropriate TWIT page) would be appreciated. In large part so the damned thing gets crawled. Still no Google results for us.... \r\n\r\n I've added my prior response to DeSitter there. \r\n\r\n Ross: you're still talking shit. Read what I wrote the last time. It's not about installation. It's about maint. Give it a couple of weeks. Month at the outside. You'll be singing praises. --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #89,305
3/18/03 9:59:14 PM
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Karsten... I am thankful...
You seems to understand... I wanted to not have a slam right away... to the new system. That is me protecting my turf...
I usually do put in twiki stuff... it's amazing at how MUCH stuff we have here and there.
I keep referencing things here... and there...
Thanks so much to everyone... for the IGM
b4k4^2
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | | [link|http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857673,00.asp|Writing on wall, Microsoft to develop apps for Linux by 2004] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberspace_strategy.pdf|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
|
Post #89,197
3/18/03 4:32:09 PM
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A guy has gotta love it when...
...Drew, Peter, Greg, and Scott are getting all hot and bothered by someone proudly displaying his ignorance of Debian, and, what was it again, oh yeah, here it comes: POLICY. I mean, it's fun watching Ross stroke himself and all, but eventually you hope something's going to spew forth. \r\n\r\n And to top it all, I hit ye olde TWIKI page, [link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/WhyDebianRocks|WhyDebianRocks] and find that even Wade's apparently on the wagon. \r\n\r\n Hell, a guy can't but hardly help to... \r\n\r\n Gloat \r\n\r\n ;-) --\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
Keep software free. Oppose the CBDTPA. Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
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Post #89,199
3/18/03 4:34:10 PM
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ObLRPD:
"Ash nazg durbatuluk, ash nazg gimbatul. Ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul."
Regards,
-scott anderson
"Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
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Post #89,203
3/18/03 4:45:49 PM
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Go fuck yourself
-drl
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Post #89,204
3/18/03 4:48:34 PM
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Ross.
How many FUCKING times do you have to be told to keep profanity out of subject lines?
Are you some kind of raving fuckwit idiot savante? Were you dropped on your head at birth? Do aliens come and steal your braincells one by one in your sleep?
You utter, utter wanker.
Peter
[link|http://www.debian.org|Shill For Hire]
[link|http://www.kuro5hin.org|There is no K5 Cabal]
[link|http://guildenstern.dyndns.org|Blog]
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Post #89,217
3/18/03 5:24:22 PM
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One by one?
It appears...that on occassion...they come and take the whole thing...and a couple weeks later they give it back...then they take it away again....
Its like an alien game of "keep-away"
If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. Fudd's First Law of Opposition
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
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Post #89,240
3/18/03 5:57:08 PM
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ICLRPD :-) (new thread)
Created as new thread #89239 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=89239|ICLRPD :-)]
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Post #89,307
3/18/03 10:11:26 PM
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It is something in the water in St. Louis
has to be. They get the water from the Mississippi river and many MegaCorps dump chemicals into it. I got to switch to spring water, when I drink sping water I am much better.
"Bill gates cannot guarantee Windows, so how are you going to guarantee my safety?"
-John Crichton to the Emperor of the Scarrans on [link|http://www.farscape.com|FarScape]
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Post #89,640
3/19/03 10:11:47 PM
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Well, I was being fair.
That and I thought the point that those three or four paragraphs was making ought to be made somewhat more forcefully. :-)
Wade.
Is it enough to love
Is it enough to breathe
Somebody rip my heart out
And leave me here to bleed
| |
Is it enough to die
Somebody save my life
I'd rather be Anything but Ordinary
Please
| -- "Anything but Ordinary" by Avril Lavigne. |
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