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New Do you really believe that?
[link|http://www.observer.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,742303,00.html|Observer]:

The most chilling witness was one of Saddam's torturers, who was captured spying against the Kurds this year [2002]. 'Kamal' told us: 'They would bring the son in front of his parents, who were handcuffed or tied, and would start off with simple methods of torture, such as cigarette burns. Then they started using other methods of torture, more serious ones.

'They would tell the father that they'd slaughter his son, and they'd bring a bayonet out, and if the parents didn't confess they'd kill the child. 'The interrogator has the right to kill the child, or perform any other butchery, whatever's necessary.' And then Kamal chuckled.


Regards,
Scott.
New Hang on.
I'm dealing with boxley right now.
New Not very effectively.
I think I know what boxley's been saying. As you know, his posting style unfortunately can be quite ambiguous (due to lack of capitalization and lack of punctuation, and his ambiguity in indicating what he believes and what he thinks your posts lead to when carried to their logical conclusion) so he's been giving you ammo.

I don't think you've been very persuasive in this thread, but that of course is just my opinion.

This thread could and probably should have been over long ago. As it stands, I don't think either of you is going to "win".

FWIW.

Now, how you respond to my post [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=84500|#84500] might be interesting....

Cheers,
Scott.
New This has nothing to do with winning
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
\ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
New You are wise beyond your years.
I think I know what boxley's been saying. As you know, his posting style unfortunately can be quite ambiguous (due to lack of capitalization and lack of punctuation, and his ambiguity in indicating what he believes and what he thinks your posts lead to when carried to their logical conclusion) so he's been giving you ammo.
And, for my part, I keep harping on definitions and examples. Clarity.

I don't think you've been very persuasive in this thread, but that of course is just my opinion.
I don't think persuasion is possible on this subject. This is another of those that hits at the emotional (fear) level. It's "us" against "them". What "we" do is "okay" or, at least, "justified".

What "they" do is "evil".

I'm using boxley as an example of the mental process required to maintain that belief system.

Allow me to go off on a tangent for an example.

In one of my earlier posts, I compared sending a missile to kill children with crushing a child's head under your boot. The only difference in the actions being whether you could see the child you were killing.

And, from a pure activity viewpoint, those actions are equivalent.

From an intentional viewpoint, the same can be said.

From any viewpoint, they are equivalent.

The only difference is something not in the scenario. Your reaction to someone who could do that. How do you feel about someone who is capable of crushing a child's head under his boot?

Do you feel differently about someone who could send a missile into a city knowing that children would die?

If so, why?
If not, why?
New so you want to pick a date from 2002?
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
\ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
New dont fsck my setups please :-)
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

questions, help? [link|mailto:pappas@catholic.org|email pappas at catholic.org]
\ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
New Hey, I waited over an hour. Sorry. Carry on... :-)
     US-UK-Spanish draft of new UN SC resolution. - (Another Scott) - (103)
         So it isn't about terrorism now? - (Brandioch) - (95)
             Call it.. the Sophistry of Naked Power-speak (?) -NT - (Ashton) - (5)
                 Yup Artful Dodging - bootstrapping on new accusations on way - (dmarker) - (4)
                     Is it just me? - (Silverlock) - (3)
                         Fair comment - thought everyone knew the tactic - my error - (dmarker) - (2)
                             I've noticed lately that you seem... - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                 Do have a lot on my plate - pack for big move - (dmarker)
             They have been reading your posts so kept it simple -NT - (boxley) - (88)
                 Awww, that's cute. - (Brandioch) - (87)
                     what position, I want a war that ends up with - (boxley) - (86)
                         I wish that didn't make sense -NT - (Silverlock) - (3)
                             :-) -NT - (boxley) - (2)
                                 You know this doesn't mean I won't..... - (Silverlock) - (1)
                                     No prob, enjoy the discourse -NT - (boxley)
                         That is a position. - (Brandioch) - (81)
                             why -NT - (boxley) - (80)
                                 If you have to ask, you'll never understand. -NT - (Brandioch) - (79)
                                     Actually I do understand, you are the antipost - (boxley) - (78)
                                         I'll cover this from the beginning. - (Brandioch) - (76)
                                             I have proved it many times - (boxley) - (75)
                                                 I posted links to support my position. - (Brandioch) - (71)
                                                     Sh*t you having a bad day? usually your stuff is better - (boxley) - (70)
                                                         Every has an opinion. - (Brandioch) - (69)
                                                             so you state that a missile and a plane is identical? - (boxley) - (68)
                                                                 Both used to intentionally destroy a building and kill the - (Brandioch) - (67)
                                                                     Is that your final definition so we can start? -NT - (boxley) - (66)
                                                                         Yes. As I have stated before. - (Brandioch) - (65)
                                                                             you changed it again, find one and stick to it please -NT - (boxley) - (64)
                                                                                 Again. - (Brandioch) - (63)
                                                                                     Once, twice, three times. - (Brandioch) - (62)
                                                                                         Very good, stable define, lets begin - (boxley) - (61)
                                                                                             You make it too easy. - (Brandioch) - (60)
                                                                                                 so the drunk killing a kid=terrorism/military - (boxley) - (59)
                                                                                                     How many differing.... - (bepatient)
                                                                                                     Your logic fails. - (Brandioch) - (57)
                                                                                                         You have lost - (drewk) - (33)
                                                                                                             That will never be admitted. - (bepatient)
                                                                                                             I will clarify that. - (Brandioch) - (31)
                                                                                                                 further clarification - (boxley) - (30)
                                                                                                                     That is the standard, Boxley, admission of defeat. - (Brandioch) - (29)
                                                                                                                         So you admit defeat? - (boxley) - (28)
                                                                                                                             How many children have died because of my views? - (Brandioch) - (27)
                                                                                                                                 how many Iraqi kids have died because of his policies? - (boxley) - (26)
                                                                                                                                     Marlowe, give the keyboard back to boxley. - (Brandioch) - (25)
                                                                                                                                         So no children have died because of his policies lately? - (boxley) - (24)
                                                                                                                                             Nice try. :) - (Brandioch) - (23)
                                                                                                                                                 So when did his policies stop killing children? - (boxley) - (22)
                                                                                                                                                     When he stopped bombing the Kurds. - (Brandioch) - (21)
                                                                                                                                                         Is that your final answer? Be very sure -NT - (boxley) - (12)
                                                                                                                                                             Whee! Let's do it again! - (Brandioch) - (11)
                                                                                                                                                                 just like I thought no balls - (boxley) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                                     Here's a link to your other post. - (Brandioch) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                                         whats the Magic man version of godwin? - (boxley) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                                             Maybe you missed the link to your post. - (Brandioch) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                                                 Links, prooves and circular references - (boxley) - (6)
                                                                                                                                                                                     Not to mention... - (bepatient)
                                                                                                                                                                                     Awwww. Your feelings are hurt, aren't they? - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                                                         would I have to decontaminate it first? :-) -NT - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                                             Would someone mind branching this shite off in a new thread? - (admin) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                                                 oops forgot, Im done -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                                                                                                                                 When did we go back to 1-thread? (new thread) - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                                                         Do you really believe that? - (Another Scott) - (7)
                                                                                                                                                             Hang on. - (Brandioch) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                                 Not very effectively. - (Another Scott) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                     This has nothing to do with winning -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                                                                                                     You are wise beyond your years. - (Brandioch)
                                                                                                                                                                 so you want to pick a date from 2002? -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                                                                                             dont fsck my setups please :-) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                 Hey, I waited over an hour. Sorry. Carry on... :-) -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                         heh, - (boxley) - (22)
                                                                                                             Game, set and match. - (Brandioch) - (21)
                                                                                                                 not hardly, me pointing out the falacy of your logic - (boxley) - (20)
                                                                                                                     Here's a link to your post. - (Brandioch) - (19)
                                                                                                                         your logic not mine -NT - (boxley) - (18)
                                                                                                                             "Can't we play something else?" - (Another Scott)
                                                                                                                             Provide a link to my post. Here's a link to your's. - (Brandioch) - (16)
                                                                                                                                 here is a link to yours - (boxley) - (15)
                                                                                                                                     From that link your posted. Even from that block you posted. - (Brandioch) - (14)
                                                                                                                                         Your logic bomb repeating in my post - (boxley) - (13)
                                                                                                                                             My claim. You said I was wrong. Then you said I was right. - (Brandioch) - (12)
                                                                                                                                                 your claim matches BP's accusations - (boxley) - (11)
                                                                                                                                                     Here's a link to your post and the quote from there. - (Brandioch) - (10)
                                                                                                                                                         you were wrong in one post, which one? - (boxley) - (9)
                                                                                                                                                             Eeek! A ferocious strawman! - (Brandioch) - (8)
                                                                                                                                                                 Box...this ass is playing a game... - (bepatient) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                     yabbut Im not bored yet :-) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                         Oh. Ok. -NT - (bepatient)
                                                                                                                                                                 so you total agree with my position, thank you -NT - (boxley) - (4)
                                                                                                                                                                     Eeeek! It's Son of Strawman! - (Brandioch) - (3)
                                                                                                                                                                         I claimed for your logic to work - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                                                                                                             Here's a link to your post. - (Brandioch) - (1)
                                                                                                                                                                                 See branch request above. -NT - (admin)
                                                 And here's a link to one of your lies. - (Brandioch) - (2)
                                                     thank you for proving my point - (boxley) - (1)
                                                         Try that one again. - (Brandioch)
                                         ICLRPD (new thread) - (Another Scott)
         No need to say any more - (JayMehaffey) - (3)
             No problem, let them put the men in the field -NT - (boxley)
             Instant veto. -NT - (Brandioch)
             Love. It. but.. not in the Disneyland World of 02, I think. -NT - (Ashton)
         Well now. - (bepatient) - (2)
             and a paragraph on the back one explaining what each one was - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                 And creatin a nuisance :) -NT - (bepatient)

Dude.
189 ms