Post #8,379
9/11/01 3:35:57 PM
9/11/01 3:37:52 PM
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Going out on a limb...
The war between Israel and Palestine is being wage by acts of agression and provocation on BOTH sides. Israel takes over some territory and Palestine fights back. Civilians get killed on both sides. Both governments know that one act of violence will result in a reciprocal act of violence by the other. In this type of governmental one-upmanship both sides need to exercise restraint and restrict/punish the unlawful acts committed by their citizens.
The attack today on the U.S. more compares to the Pearl Harbor attack. The U.S., AFAIK, has not been engaged in guerilla warfare with any county. The attack was unprovoked. And, due to the scale, had to have been back/funded by some nation. Retaliation is in order.
Nuke 'm? Maybe, maybe not. According to my history lessons, Japan was ready to continue WWII. When the U.S. dropped the bomb, twice, the government realized that they had to quit. Was it right? It ended the war. End of discussion.
As Andrew asked, how many of our innocents should be sacrificed before we end this war, and yes, the attack is a declaration of war. I hate the thought of violence and death. But, in war, people die. And not only the fighters. The planners and government behind the attacks know that and are obviously willing to sacrifice their citizens.
Let's identify the perpetrators and take them out with a minimum of "collateral damage".
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
Edited by jbrabeck
Sept. 11, 2001, 03:37:52 PM EDT
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Post #8,383
9/11/01 3:40:04 PM
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You have the Middle East facts wrong
11 months ago the Palestinians started the violence. Israel has only responded. Israel made a generous offer at Camp David and Arafat went home and started with violence.
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Post #8,392
9/11/01 3:51:03 PM
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Thanks for the clarification
With all the heated language and accusations flying around here, I had plum forgotten that there was no violence in the Middle East until 11 months ago.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #8,396
9/11/01 3:55:38 PM
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Of course not
But the main tenet of Oslo was that the Palestinians renounced violence. From 1997-2000 it was relatively quiet in Israel.
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Post #8,403
9/11/01 4:03:14 PM
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Minister of Peace
Please refresh me, just when did Israel kick out their Prime Minister (of Peace) for the new Prime Minister (of No Concessions, we will retaliate)?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,499
9/12/01 3:12:12 AM
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And why not?
I don't hear any cries in the US for negotiation.
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Post #8,502
9/12/01 6:54:15 AM
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It's too soon, bl.. cool it.
Look - Muricans (you lived here, remember?) have a hard time empathising with unMuricans and lately.. have been surprisingly dense re what the daily provocations of Religio-suicide babies, are like - and what mayhem they can cause. And IMO - intentionally obtuse regarding the stark fact:
Israel's enemies have written in blood their conviction that nothing less than complete erasure of the state of Israel, will suffice. Well, that happens to be bin Laden's precise view of "The West" - very much including Murica. What goes around..
These events are shocking; indeed. But they are not remotely surprising! except to those with no imagination or those immersed in the Murican Dream, including: Bad stuff only happens "over there".
This may be the largest number of casualties on Murican soil since Antietam (civil war), as David Mc Cullough suggested yesterday... (We 'never mind' too much about Other soil, and we hardly worried much about gooks er Vietnamese: as their casualties exceeded 25x our own).
It was *inevitable* that we should experience this first hand; not just at overseas embassies. First rule of techno (or any machine) is, that it is vastly simpler to destroy one than to build it. And we are surrounded by machines, electric and electronic grids, dams, etc. -- many of which are vulnerable in simply uncountable ways.
So now *we* get to decide about that vaunted 'restraint' which so many deem that, Israel has been shamefully guilty of lacking (every time a kid in the crossfire gets head blown off). See! See! - they're Animals! But now,
Our Ox Has Been Gored.
I predict - the sanctimony about 'restraint' is at an end. Gawd knows what fury shall be unleashed, how much 'evidence' shall be found, simulated or simply created (?) to justify whatever excess.
Clearly we *have* to respond other than wimpishly = just as Israel has supposed it must. Just as surely - many shall blame US support of Israel as sole cause of it all. Conveniently.
Next we shall witness the Arab states around Israel.. dragging feet re any cooperation with US on "overall world terrorism" (because of 'the Jewish Problem'). But we WILL ensure an adequate supply of that Arab oil - Hell, we proved we'd go to war for the Freedom-loving People's Republic of Kuwait: Honest! it WASN'T about the oil!
We may grow up a bit, next (?) or - just wallow in oil-hypocrisy. I haven't the foggiest / which. Resident Cheney will work out something.
Meanwhile.. bin Laden or whomever: shall deserve the fate awaiting him / or the surrogates who harbor him (which may be as close as we ever get to him). We have every #$^*#$ Right to be rilly Pissed Off at the Motherfucker. We haven't a Right to start WW-III.
Ashton
who feels grief for the thousands of innocents - and more so for - their alive families who must bear the loss: because our idiot species still "Love" (*only* each One's Special) 'God' and will kill you to Prove it.
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Post #8,411
9/11/01 4:23:04 PM
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Um, Japan was ready to surrender b4 the nukes.
We just wanted to send a message to Soviet Russia.
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Post #8,415
9/11/01 4:44:55 PM
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Re: Um, Japan was ready to surrender b4 the nukes.
Found with Google...
Newman, Robert P. Truman and the Hiroshima Cult. Lansing, MI: Michigan State University Press, 1995.
Giangreco, NWCR, Spring 1998: "Newman convincingly shreds the myths that have grown up around the use of nuclear weapons to end the Pacific War, such as the oft-repeated claims that the Japanese were on the verge of surrender when the bombs were dropped, and that their use was primarily aimed at intimidating Joseph Stalin."
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
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Post #8,417
9/11/01 4:47:24 PM
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That's a Toland apologist answer
John Toland has written a number of books about the war and in the one I read blames the war to the Japanese ambassador's hemmerhoids. He excuses (actually, he didn't even cover) Japanese atrocities, or blithely says Japanese soldiers suffered as much as prisoners of war. Excuse me, prisoners of war aren't supposed to be tortured.
The Japanese might have been willing to surrender, but they were not willing to go for unconditional surrender. They would have fought. Remember, this is a military government that knew its back was to the wall - they had nothing to lose. Best estimates at the time were a million US casualties.
The US at the time could not back down from its "unconditional surrender" demand, after having beaten Germany.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
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