Post #83,752
2/24/03 12:17:23 PM
|
You're very funny.
I don't know where you dig this stuff up but its all unsubstantiated.
Anyhow, war is the wrong metaphor. I'm not a recreational drug user. I'm not particularly opposed to it though. I do think that the puritanical bent of the drug enforcement policies in the US is counterproductive. Among the examples:
Citizens vote to permit the use of [link|http://www.nap.edu/readingroom/books/marimed/es.html|medical marijuana]. But no pharmaceutical company can or will produce it. I mean, who can blame them when the feds continue to [link|http://www.pressdemocrat.com/local/news/16pot_a1empirea.html|ignore the law] and continue to bust suppliers? forcing citizens to form groups to produce their own. Even at this length, the feds ignore the [link|http://www.ohiopatient.net/Poll_Analysis.htm|will of the people] and their right to local [link|http://vote96.ss.ca.gov/Vote96/html/BP/215.htm|self government] and harrass those people by staging [link|http://www.safeaccessnow.org/newswire_detail.php?id=90|raids] - effectively denying beneficial medicine prescribed by licensed physicians.
My other beef is with the [link|http://www.medsch.wisc.edu/painpolicy/publicat/97apsmm.htm|current attitude] towards strong opiates to treat chronic pain. Again, because these drugs can make people feel unreasonably good when taken inappropriately, the establishment (AMA at the moment) scrutinizes their use and intimidates doctors into underprescribing pain medications when we have studies that show that when used appropriately there is no euphoria along with reduced chance of addiction - only a return to normal function.
This is the kind of crap that the "war on drugs" boneheaded attitude is buying us.
Finally, much [link|http://www.drugwardistortions.org/distortion13.htm|violent crime] in the US is [link|http://www.casacolumbia.org/newsletter1457/newsletter_show.htm?doc_id=6989|caused by] the high price of drugs.
This "WAR" based approach to the drug problem isn't getting us anywhere good. We just foster violent crime, funnel money to foreign powers, inflict suffering on legit patients and turn them into fugitives.
I agree that Clinton didn't help the war on drugs - he should have completely eliminated support for Reagan's stupid legacy program and changed the emphasis to decriminalization with social rehab programs. The Columbian government would thank us, the patients would thank us, and the car radio owning world would thank us.
I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more.
--Alan Perlis
|
Post #83,770
2/24/03 1:22:45 PM
|
Exactly.
The Columbian government would thank us, the patients would thank us, and the car radio owning world would thank us. The losers who are committing the crimes to finance their drug habits are NOT holding up banks or cracking diamond storage vaults. They're stealing your car radio. They're shooting 7-11 clerks. They're mugging people.
|
Post #83,824
2/24/03 4:20:00 PM
|
Yep, you notice laughing boy gave up on this thread
Game, Set, Match.
I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more.
--Alan Perlis
|
Post #83,830
2/24/03 4:55:43 PM
|
One more data point - US v Netherlands
Amsterdam - a modern sodom and gommorah if ever there was one.
Legal pot *and* sex for money. Yet they retain a lower incidence of HIV, crime, and drug use than the puritan morality based US.
A few [link|http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.htm|stats]
I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more.
--Alan Perlis
|
Post #83,835
2/24/03 5:13:24 PM
|
Oh I don't know about that.
Downtown Amsterdam can be a right dangerous place. Heroin is a >real< problem there. Though they've been very creative with needle programs and the like.
The separation of soft vs hard drugs allowed them to focus on the real problem though.
It is a lesson that we need to learn.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #83,869
2/24/03 7:57:17 PM
|
Gosh.. then - our results are So Much Better.___Aren't they?
|
Post #83,894
2/24/03 10:07:48 PM
|
You wanna talk metrics or dollars?
We have MORE "criminals" in our jails for drug offenses.
Therefore, our way MUST be better.
We spend MORE money prosecuting and jailing those "criminals".
Therefore, our way MUST be better.
Didn't Econ101 teach you ANYTHING?
You get what you pay for and we're paying a lot more for our "War on Drugs" than they are.
|
Post #83,938
2/25/03 12:11:46 AM
|
You really can't read, can you?
What part of "we can learn something from them" did you fail to understand?
Ashton I expect it from. He's so busy inventing my positions that I doubt he even reads my posts anymore...preferring to make up positions so that he can use the word economics and bizness in another post.
My post specifically praised their differing focus on hard and soft drugs...and stated that we (the US) could learn from their lead.
You..on the other hand...in an effort to "avoid" me...by again posting one step removed...bit you in the ass this time...because you obviously only read Ashton's post...and made an ass of yourself for not actually reading mine.
Been to Amsterdam lately? Maybe you >lived< there?
I did.
And because its such a small place..and the addicts are so concentrated because of that...it can be dangerous. I have no doubt our percentages are worse. I also have no doubt our enforcement tactics don't work.
But that shouldn't stop you from ignoring that in my post and veiling an insult.
Heaven's no.
You are so above that.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #84,003
2/25/03 1:06:22 PM
|
Smell that?
Fear.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
Post #84,229
2/26/03 6:21:30 AM
|
Touch\ufffd
Yes, I noted your comment that we could learn something - incorrectly parsing that as ~ "we could learn... something" from Amsterdamites. As in.. 'with faint praise'. My bad - imaginary emphasis on my part.
I've visited Am. a few times too, but not long enough or recent enough to have an opinion on How-bad is the Bad section. I do have an opinion of How-bad are many of Our Bad sections. Nightly fire-fight? Permanent war zone. Artificial scarcity if? When! It Kills Us. (But that's OK - they're junkies; criminals not er 'patients'. Bump the price a bit higher so they can steal more and you can arrest more - by buying stoolies to invent DA-friendly stories. cha cha cha)
Hey.. doesn't that circle jerk sound more like [the Obligatory] Bizness??
Offhand I'd guess that if we merely copied all of the Good & Bad aspects of the Dutch approach blindly.. we'd be 832% better off (just in $$ - vastly more in all other more important senses).
I'd also bet that our Puritanism will guarantee that We Won't come even half-way in that direction until.. maybe 20% are incarcerated (not just 20% of the colored - but overall population). We haven't learned shit from Prohibition.. too long ago for the young to have any knowledge except a sentence in a reader.
Blessed are those who expect nothing.
Ashton
|
Post #83,947
2/25/03 1:56:36 AM
|
I felt safe in Amsterdam
I was only there a couple of days so maybe I didn't encounter the element or didn't know what I was seeing.
OTOH, I never really felt safe in San Francisco - their heroin problem is quite a bit more obvious and the city literally looks like a refugee camp. I saw kids shooting up on the sidewalk often and the most dangerous little area (6th Street near Mission) was only a couple blocks from my office (4th and Market) or Moscone Center (4th and Mission). It featured throat slashings and shootings on a regular basis.
IOW, you can't go to SF for a convention and miss stepping over at least one addict/wino lying on the street.
I think that it's extraordinarily important that we in computer science keep fun in computing. When it started out, it was an awful lot of fun. Of course, the paying customer got shafted every now and then, and after a while we began to take their complaints seriously. We began to feel as if we really were responsible for the successful, error-free perfect use of these machines. I don't think we are. I think we're responsible for stretching them, setting them off in new directions, and keeping fun in the house. I hope the field of computer science never loses its sense of fun. Above all, I hope we don't become missionaries. Don't feel as if you're Bible salesmen. The world has too many of those already. What you know about computing other people will learn. Don't feel as if the key to successful computing is only in your hands. What's in your hands, I think and hope, is intelligence: the ability to see the machine as more than when you were first led up to it, that you can make it more.
--Alan Perlis
|
Post #83,953
2/25/03 2:44:12 AM
|
I don't doubt it.
Most of the places "to be seen" are kept pretty safe. Amsterdam has very few cops though, surprisingly...and the strip from the train station through the red light district can get a little rugged after dark.
I will grant that is not usually as >brutally< violent as major US metro areas (re: slashings, murders)..it is still not somewhere that you want to be alone after dark.
The main method used by the Amsterdam cops (and same in Brussels) is to contain the situation in a confined space. They try to keep the addicts confined to certain areas...and largely succeed...you just don't want to be wandering around in those confined areas by yourself.
But that is really no different than any other big city. There are places you just don't wanna be.
You were born...and so you're free...so Happy Birthday! Laurie Anderson
[link|mailto:bepatient@aol.com|BePatient]
|
