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New The response here: Lets commit War Crimes
I find it hard to believe but a number of people in this group are advocating that the US commit war crimes against humanity. Andrew Grygus has suggested that we drop nuclear bombs on Islamic nations. There is no doubt that the dropping of a nuclear weapon on a populated area is a war crime of the first degree. You are guaranteed to kill hundreds of thousand or even millions of innocent civilians. Darrell Spice, Jr. agrees with the use of nuclear weapons. Marlowe suggests "Revive colonialism if need be". Does anyone here disgaree with them? What happened to Richard Boucher's (the State Department Spokesman) mantra of restraint and don't escalate the violence?
New f**king troll
piss off. You don't like it here? Fine, go away.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

--Thomas Jefferson
New Brilliant answer
why don't you try to answer my points. I challenge you to explain how the use of a nuclear weapon is justified and not a war crime in this kind of situation.
New You want to know why?
"why don't you try to answer my points. I challenge you to explain how the use of a nuclear weapon is justified and not a war crime in this kind of situation."

ermm.... Since I never advocated the use of nukes I think I'll pass on your challenge.

But you are still trolling for flames. Sheesh, I favor Israel, I think they are in an impossible situation. I think the Palestinian terrorist attacks are subhuman. But if all Israelis are like you I think I may have to re-evaluate my position. You say things that paint the entire group here as hypocrites while never acknowledging that Israel may possibly have made a mistake sometime in its history.

Once again, if you don't like it here, why stay?
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

--Thomas Jefferson
New I am just pointing out...
that it is very easy to call on others to show restraint, sacrifice their citizens, but when it happens to you it suddenly isn't so easy.

I didn't accuse you of wanting to use nukes, however there were a number of people in the group who specefically mentioned it.
New The brush you paint with is too broad
Point out all you want. Don't accuse everyone here though. Disagree with individuals. Disagree with US policy. Fine. Try to be discriminating though. You end up alienating those who, for the most part, agree with you.
"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

--Thomas Jefferson
New err, bluke aint here he is at ground zero although
bluke, your I told you so isnt nice. Take a break,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New sure, let's roll over cry "please don't hurt us again"
we know how well thugs respond to that.

Darrell Spice, Jr.

[link|http://home.houston.rr.com/spiceware/|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore

New What makes you better then the terrorist
Let me get this straight. You advocate the wiping out of hundreds of thousands of men women and children by dropping a nuclear bomb on them?
New Right where it should be
Does anyone here disgaree with them? What happened to Richard Boucher's (the State Department Spokesman) mantra of restraint and don't escalate the violence?

While I don't agree with Andrew or Marlowe, I do disagree with the passive restraint apparently advocated by the state department. When an act of terrorism is committed, the best response is a fast, sure, retaliation against the terrorists.

Unfortunately, the long mostly successful Israeli fight against terrorism *does* seem to be unravelling - but that may be partly due to their leadership in recent years, giving in to Palestinians on every front, without really getting much back.
French Zombies are zapping me with lasers!
New Going out on a limb...
The war between Israel and Palestine is being wage by acts of agression and provocation on BOTH sides. Israel takes over some territory and Palestine fights back. Civilians get killed on both sides. Both governments know that one act of violence will result in a reciprocal act of violence by the other. In this type of governmental one-upmanship both sides need to exercise restraint and restrict/punish the unlawful acts committed by their citizens.

The attack today on the U.S. more compares to the Pearl Harbor attack. The U.S., AFAIK, has not been engaged in guerilla warfare with any county. The attack was unprovoked. And, due to the scale, had to have been back/funded by some nation. Retaliation is in order.

Nuke 'm? Maybe, maybe not. According to my history lessons, Japan was ready to continue WWII. When the U.S. dropped the bomb, twice, the government realized that they had to quit. Was it right? It ended the war. End of discussion.

As Andrew asked, how many of our innocents should be sacrificed before we end this war, and yes, the attack is a declaration of war. I hate the thought of violence and death. But, in war, people die. And not only the fighters. The planners and government behind the attacks know that and are obviously willing to sacrifice their citizens.

Let's identify the perpetrators and take them out with a minimum of "collateral damage".
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
Expand Edited by jbrabeck Sept. 11, 2001, 03:37:52 PM EDT
New You have the Middle East facts wrong
11 months ago the Palestinians started the violence. Israel has only responded. Israel made a generous offer at Camp David and Arafat went home and started with violence.
New Thanks for the clarification
With all the heated language and accusations flying around here, I had plum forgotten that there was no violence in the Middle East until 11 months ago.
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
New Of course not
But the main tenet of Oslo was that the Palestinians renounced violence. From 1997-2000 it was relatively quiet in Israel.
New Minister of Peace
Please refresh me, just when did Israel kick out their Prime Minister (of Peace) for the new Prime Minister (of No Concessions, we will retaliate)?
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
New And why not?
I don't hear any cries in the US for negotiation.
New It's too soon, bl.. cool it.
Look - Muricans (you lived here, remember?) have a hard time empathising with unMuricans and lately.. have been surprisingly dense re what the daily provocations of Religio-suicide babies, are like - and what mayhem they can cause. And IMO - intentionally obtuse regarding the stark fact:

Israel's enemies have written in blood their conviction that nothing less than complete erasure of the state of Israel, will suffice. Well, that happens to be bin Laden's precise view of "The West" - very much including Murica. What goes around..

These events are shocking; indeed. But they are not remotely surprising! except to those with no imagination or those immersed in the Murican Dream, including: Bad stuff only happens "over there".

This may be the largest number of casualties on Murican soil since Antietam (civil war), as David Mc Cullough suggested yesterday... (We 'never mind' too much about Other soil, and we hardly worried much about gooks er Vietnamese: as their casualties exceeded 25x our own).

It was *inevitable* that we should experience this first hand; not just at overseas embassies. First rule of techno (or any machine) is, that it is vastly simpler to destroy one than to build it. And we are surrounded by machines, electric and electronic grids, dams, etc. -- many of which are vulnerable in simply uncountable ways.

So now *we* get to decide about that vaunted 'restraint' which so many deem that, Israel has been shamefully guilty of lacking (every time a kid in the crossfire gets head blown off). See! See! - they're Animals! But now,

Our Ox Has Been Gored.

I predict - the sanctimony about 'restraint' is at an end. Gawd knows what fury shall be unleashed, how much 'evidence' shall be found, simulated or simply created (?) to justify whatever excess.

Clearly we *have* to respond other than wimpishly = just as Israel has supposed it must. Just as surely - many shall blame US support of Israel as sole cause of it all. Conveniently.

Next we shall witness the Arab states around Israel.. dragging feet re any cooperation with US on "overall world terrorism" (because of 'the Jewish Problem'). But we WILL ensure an adequate supply of that Arab oil - Hell, we proved we'd go to war for the Freedom-loving People's Republic of Kuwait: Honest! it WASN'T about the oil!

We may grow up a bit, next (?) or - just wallow in oil-hypocrisy. I haven't the foggiest / which. Resident Cheney will work out something.

Meanwhile.. bin Laden or whomever: shall deserve the fate awaiting him / or the surrogates who harbor him (which may be as close as we ever get to him). We have every #$^*#$ Right to be rilly Pissed Off at the Motherfucker. We haven't a Right to start WW-III.


Ashton
who feels grief for the thousands of innocents - and more so for - their alive families who must bear the loss: because our idiot species still "Love" (*only* each One's Special) 'God' and will kill you to Prove it.
New Um, Japan was ready to surrender b4 the nukes.
We just wanted to send a message to Soviet Russia.
New Re: Um, Japan was ready to surrender b4 the nukes.
Found with Google...

Newman, Robert P. Truman and the Hiroshima Cult. Lansing, MI: Michigan State University Press, 1995.

Giangreco, NWCR, Spring 1998: "Newman convincingly shreds the myths that have grown up around the use of nuclear weapons to end the Pacific War, such as the oft-repeated claims that the Japanese were on the verge of surrender when the bombs were dropped, and that their use was primarily aimed at intimidating Joseph Stalin."
[link|mailto:jbrabeck@mn.mediaone.net|Joe]
New That's a Toland apologist answer
John Toland has written a number of books about the war and in the one I read blames the war to the Japanese ambassador's hemmerhoids. He excuses (actually, he didn't even cover) Japanese atrocities, or blithely says Japanese soldiers suffered as much as prisoners of war. Excuse me, prisoners of war aren't supposed to be tortured.

The Japanese might have been willing to surrender, but they were not willing to go for unconditional surrender. They would have fought. Remember, this is a military government that knew its back was to the wall - they had nothing to lose. Best estimates at the time were a million US casualties.

The US at the time could not back down from its "unconditional surrender" demand, after having beaten Germany.
That no man should scruple, or hesitate a moment to use arms in defense of so valuable a blessing [as freedom], on which all the good and evil of life depends, is clearly my opinion; yet arms ... should be the last resource. - George Washington
New I'll settle for plain murder.
Though, I wouldn't mind the death taking a long time for people like this behind these things.

But you can't just go out and do stuff like that. The viceral reaction isn't always the right one.

You're upset, because in a similar (but not identical) situation, Israel is urged restraint, with the people they have to live next to.

As you might have noted, while Israel has done some incredibly dumb things - and you won't admit to some of the wrong things they've done - I don't fault them for hauling out "disproportionate" weaponry. Not really.

There is no doubt that the dropping of a nuclear weapon on a populated area is a war crime of the first degree. You are guaranteed to kill hundreds of thousand or even millions of innocent civilians.

Factually, you are incorrect. There is a lot of doubt with that statement.

There have been 2 nuclear weapons used against cities, with no condemnation for war crimes. There have been conventional attacks against cities, with many more than the nuclear attacks killed and wounded, without that claim being justified.

I personally don't consider getting killed by an atomic bomb "worse" than getting killed by a conventional bomb.

Does anyone here disgaree with them?

I don't totally agree with them, no. I disagree with "colonialism". Won't work. There should be a response.

There is/are some nations who have contributed to this attack. I would not rule out *any* retaliation as out of bounds against those countries, after war was declared against them.

Addison
New War crimes
It is a war crime to target innocent civilians. A nuclear weapon by definition is indiscriminate. As for why no one was prosecuted fro war crimes after WW II for the raids on Dresden or Hiroshima, the answer is obvious, the US and British won the war and were therefore not going to prosecute themselves.
New You're flat wrong.
It is a war crime to target innocent civilians.

First, its not.

Second, they're not civilians, they're [workers/soldiers].

As for why no one was prosecuted fro war crimes after WW II for the raids on Dresden or Hiroshima, the answer is obvious, the US and British won the war and were therefore not going to prosecute themselves.

How many germans were proscuted for bombing London and other cities? How many submarine commanders for torpedoing civilian vessels?

I pointed out that your statement "There is no doubt" was bullshit. There at *least* is doubt. Otherwise - prove why there is *no* doubt, per your statement.

Addison
New Not a war crime to slaughter babies?
Well, that's a new one on me.

Is this just something they overlooked, or is it part of the fallout from Roe v. Wade? Or did some bioethics panel come up with this loophole?

[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Did you read the Geneva Convention
It clearly outlaws the harming of civilians period

Here are quotes from Protocol 1
Additional to the Geneva Conventions, 1977
[link|http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm|http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm]
PART IV: CIVILIAN POPULATION
"Article 48: Basic Rule
In order to ensure respect for and protection of the civilian population and civilian objects, the Parties to the conflict shall at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants and between civilian objects and military objectives and accordingly shall direct their operations only against military objectives."

Article 49: Definition of Attacks and Scope of Application
"Attacks" means acts of violence against the adversary, whether in offense or in defense.
The provisions of this Protocol with respect to attacks apply to all attacks in whatever territory conducted, including the national territory belonging to a Party to the conflict but under the control of an adverse Party.
The provisions of this Section apply to any land, air or sea warfare which may affect the civilian population, individual civilians or civilian objects on land. They further apply to all attacks from the sea or from the air against objectives on land but do not otherwise affect the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict at sea or in the air.

Article 50: Definition of Civilians and Civilian Population
A civilian is any person who does not belong to one of the categories of persons referred to in Article 4 A 111, lIl, (31 and 161 of the Third Convention and in Article 43 of this Protocol. In case of doubt whether a person is a civilian, that person shall be considered to be a civilian.
The civilian population comprises all persons who are civilians.
The presence within the civilian population of individuals who do not come within the definition of civilians does not deprive the population of its civilian character.

Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:
those which are not directed at a specific military objective;
those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or
those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol; and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.
Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:
an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and
an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.
New So why is Israel violating it?
New How exactly is Israel violating the Geneva Convention?
I have already pointed out here that the settlemennts do not violate the Geneva Convention (see the comments I posted from Eugene Rostow). Israel has tried very hard not to kill innocent civilians, it has used precision weaponry etc. to minimize the casualties.
New That's interesting
First you say:
Did you read the Geneva Convention
It clearly outlaws the harming of civilians period.

Then, you say:
Israel has tried very hard not to kill innocent civilians ...

So, is it wrong, period? Or is it OK if you try really hard not to?
This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
New Don't be perfectionist.
Reasonable precautions are precisely that. Reasonable.

All things considered, Israel is on far better moral ground than its enemies. Not that that's saying much.

[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Don't be ridiculous
The nature of war is that people including civilians get killed. The Convention is talking about attacks where it is clear that many civilians will also get killed.
New Make up your mind.
You make absolutes that are ridicolous.

Then you bitch when the same question is asked of sainted Israeli actions.

Either its absolute, or its not.

Pick one, and shut up already.

Addison
New Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited
The Geneva Convention prohibits indicscriminate attacks:
"Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:
an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects; and
an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated."

Dropping a nuclear weapon is an indiscriminate attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life. The firing of a missile at a car carrying terrorists is not.
New Which is why . .
. . terrorists and governments of similar mind deliberately disperse their military installations among heavily populated civilian areas. This was not much done at the time this accord was written, but is a result of the accord. The civilian population knows what's going on and supports it, they have to expect "collateral damage".

It would not, however, be proper to use something like a nuclear weapon or even a B52 run (total destruction, but confined to a 1/4 x 1/2 mile rectangle) unless the target was extremely important with no other way to handle it.
[link|http://www.aaxnet.com|AAx]
New Re: Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited
Dropping a nuclear weapon is an indiscriminate attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life.

Bullshit.

Haven't you figured out by now you don't KNOW ENOUGH to be talking about Nukes?

The firing of a missile at a car carrying terrorists is not.

And a helicopter ripple-firing rocket pods at an apartment building is?

Addison
New What is the relevence here
You said that dropping a nuclear bomb and killing civilians is not a war crime. I pointed you to the Geneva Convention which clearly states that indiscriminate attacks where civilians are likely to be killed are prohibited. This clearly disallows the above.
New You don't know the meaning of the word "relevance".
You said that dropping a nuclear bomb and killing civilians is not a war crime.

1) Dropping atomic weaponry doesn't, by itself, kill civilians.

2) Killing civilians by itself isn't a war crime - as you note, Israel is killing quite a few.

Targetting civilians might be another story, but (And the Geneva convention (which the US was not signatory to in WWII) you cite was AMENDED after that war. But you're trying to use it to talk about something previous).

And by the by, Israel is taking out quite a few civilians who are ACCUSED of being terrorists. No trial, no arrest, no conviction. There he is, hit him with an anti-tank rocket!

This clearly disallows the above.

No, it doesn't.

And its been explained several times. Don't you use the word "clearly" or "all" or other superlatives - you're not clear enough on them to be able to.

Addison
New Venting anger...
Personally, I don't see how your discussion, as an Israeli, is productive? Those who express shock and anger have not set off a nuclear devices and are not, at any rate, likely in charge of the arsenal. They are simply expressing anger. The chances of the U.S. using a nuclear response are remote at best.

I'm not one that believes a quick strike against the terrorists is necessarily the best course of action. Will power and the ability to see this thing through over the long haul is what's needed. The terrorists have managed to captivate our attention, but I'm not sure what they hope to gain by rousing a sleeping giant. I'd be more likely satisfied with a response that involved mobilizing a fleet and our air force over a course of weeks. That would be more a demostration of willpower than just a single quick flyby. Let them see our resolve.

My own suspicion, though admittedly not backed up by evidence, is that this attack is somehow related to the original attack on the World Trade Center. If that were the case, then the likely source would be Egyptian, not the West Bank or Afghanistan - though I'm sure there'll be implications there as well. Before we even discuss the response, we first need to establish who it is we're dealing with here.

One thing we do know, though, is that we are not dealing with rational people. They don't operate under an economic or political motive. They simply sought to kill people. Well, killing a lot of people has been shown to be a relatively simple thing to do. Living life is the more difficult task.
New Look at yourself for a moment
We are upset, we are angry, we still trying to find out if our friends and family are alive. My sister's job occasionally takes her to the Pentagon and the State Department. I don't know yet if she is OK or not.

The largest terrorist attack in history, and before it's even over your trying to use it for political advantage?

Nothing I can say after that is remotly printable.

Jay
Expand Edited by JayMehaffey Sept. 11, 2001, 03:56:41 PM EDT
New Actually I am in the same boat
I was born and bred in NY most of my family lives there and I have alot fo friends who work in the Wall Street area. Believe me, I feel the pain.
New Define "restraint."
I'm not going along with the nuke `em all idea. But I'm dead serious about taking their country over. They have forfeited their right to run their own affairs. We did something akin to this to West Germany in the late forties, and Japan too. It didn't do any real harm, and it may have helped restore basic human decency in those countries. Why not apply the same approach to today's terrorist nations?

Unless somebody's got a better idea. I'm all ears.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New And another thing.
For the record, I have never urged restraint upon the state of Israel.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New Errm... About taking their country over....
That puts us fighting a guerrila war on the oppositions home turf. When the opposition has outside supply. (I'm assuming one Islamic bunch or another, could easily be wrong, but if right...)
Been there, done that... we lost that also.
So far, everyone with access to triggers has taken a deep breath and is checking the situation. I thought we (the U.S.) would be in a shooting war before dinner. I am relieved and guardedly optimistic since I haven't eaten yet. It would be ever so nice if we knew who we were about to eradicate and why with some certainy before we embark whatever revenge we select.
My thoughts about the instigators is that such people should be stopped and the practice discouraged. Massively. There are no pretty ways of doing this. There are effective ways that don't involve nukes. It's an awefully tough call. But if the call is made, I would hope that we do not spend the lives of our troops in a stupid hopeless war, just to make it look 'fair'; just do it with the maximum efficiency. But we really should be sure about who the real target is before doing something drastic, even if it makes it a little late for the five o'clock news.

gods, this sucks,
Hugh
New But it has been done successfully.
It was done all the time in the 19th century. It's simply a matter of being clear and resolved in one's intent, and not screwing up. These are the factors that were lacking when we went into Vietnam.

Extreme example: at one point even the French were able to more or less own Indochina.

If we go into Afghanistan, hardly anybody is going to go "One, two, three, four, what are we fighting for?" They'll all know damn well what we're fighting for. Personal safety. There's nothing abstract and geopolitical about that smoking wreckage downtown.
[link|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html|http://www.angelfir...e/index.html]
New not afganistan, lose big time
even john bull got his ass handed to him. We should go in and out with impunity but to occupy? couldnt be done, rephrase couldnt be held for long.
thanx,
bill
why did god give us a talleywhacker and a trigger finger if he didnt want us to use them?
Randy Wayne White
New Not recently
Once the locals have the ablilty to be suitably supplied from a resource that is safe from invaders, they have pretty much got it made from a guerrilla warfare standpoint.
The French in indochina did rather well as long as the contest was trained soldiers against rubber workers with parangs. Once the Soviet Union and China started supplying indochina, the French got their clock cleaned.
Without a reasonable means of interdicting military supplies (which we don't have) or stopping the source (again, I don't think so), we end up with a long guerrilla war which we will probably lose, as long as we try to occupy their country.
As long as we have no use for the land or the occupants, the Carthage treatment is technically feasable. Whether it is necessary or desirable is a different discussion.

-Hugh
     The response here: Lets commit War Crimes - (bluke) - (44)
         f**king troll - (Silverlock) - (5)
             Brilliant answer - (bluke) - (4)
                 You want to know why? - (Silverlock) - (3)
                     I am just pointing out... - (bluke) - (1)
                         The brush you paint with is too broad - (Silverlock)
                     err, bluke aint here he is at ground zero although - (boxley)
         sure, let's roll over cry "please don't hurt us again" - (SpiceWare) - (1)
             What makes you better then the terrorist - (bluke)
         Right where it should be - (wharris2)
         Going out on a limb... - (jbrabeck) - (9)
             You have the Middle East facts wrong - (bluke) - (5)
                 Thanks for the clarification - (drewk) - (4)
                     Of course not - (bluke) - (3)
                         Minister of Peace - (jbrabeck) - (2)
                             And why not? - (bluke) - (1)
                                 It's too soon, bl.. cool it. - (Ashton)
             Um, Japan was ready to surrender b4 the nukes. - (mmoffitt) - (2)
                 Re: Um, Japan was ready to surrender b4 the nukes. - (jbrabeck)
                 That's a Toland apologist answer - (wharris2)
         I'll settle for plain murder. - (addison) - (16)
             War crimes - (bluke) - (15)
                 You're flat wrong. - (addison) - (13)
                     Not a war crime to slaughter babies? - (marlowe)
                     Did you read the Geneva Convention - (bluke) - (11)
                         So why is Israel violating it? -NT - (addison) - (10)
                             How exactly is Israel violating the Geneva Convention? - (bluke) - (7)
                                 That's interesting - (drewk) - (6)
                                     Don't be perfectionist. - (marlowe)
                                     Don't be ridiculous - (bluke) - (4)
                                         Make up your mind. - (addison) - (3)
                                             Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited - (bluke) - (2)
                                                 Which is why . . - (Andrew Grygus)
                                                 Re: Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited - (addison)
                             What is the relevence here - (bluke) - (1)
                                 You don't know the meaning of the word "relevance". - (addison)
                 Venting anger... - (ChrisR)
         Look at yourself for a moment - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
             Actually I am in the same boat - (bluke)
         Define "restraint." - (marlowe) - (5)
             And another thing. - (marlowe)
             Errm... About taking their country over.... - (hnick) - (3)
                 But it has been done successfully. - (marlowe) - (2)
                     not afganistan, lose big time - (boxley)
                     Not recently - (hnick)

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