Boxley possesses the first "anti-clue".

Post #82,004 by Brandioch 2/16/03 2:13:52 AM Reply	Boxley possesses the first "anti-clue". Many folks here and elsewhere impose their lens and culture on other countries including our own. Which is probably why the efforts to bring "democracy" to Afghanistan have resulted in MORE people joining the anti-US movement and warlords controlling the countryside. Now, who was in support of that? Someone complained about the nature of wood in a forest, they are doomed to being disapointed by what they beleive in. Are you saying that our efforts WILL result in a democratic government in Iraq? Without the massive anti-US sympathy of the citizens? No, you're not one to actually clearly state anything. That would be too easy to be proven wrong. Whereas I will post my predictions for later verification. If we invade Iraq, we will see EXACTLY what we're seeing in Afghanistan now. The US supported puppet government will rule in the cities while the countryside will be ruled by the local warlord and the citizens will face even WORSE threats than they do now and they will blame the US and join anti-US movements. Just like reports of the Northern Alliance committing war crimes while suported by the US. How many times does this have to happen and be reported before you'll learn, Boxley? Or will anything every open your eyes?
Post #82,035 by boxley 2/16/03 10:51:58 AM Reply	You didnt read it or you didnt understand it? nope guess not, thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] \ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
Post #82,092 by marlowe 2/16/03 5:44:08 PM Reply	Exactly what we're seeing in Afghanistan right now? So you're admitting the outcome will be a substantial improvement over the status quo ante? At least for our purposes? "Going to a march organized by Communists doesn't make you a Communist, any more than going to a march organized by Nazis makes you a Nazi." - Glenn Reynolds CHICKENHAWK! Scourge of clucking hens everywhere! Victory is the answer. There are no alternatives. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #82,101 by Brandioch 2/16/03 5:58:58 PM Reply	So you're admitting it was just for the pipeline? So you're admitting the outcome will be a substantial improvement over the status quo ante? At least for our purposes? The average person in Afghanistan is LESS safe now than they were under the Taliban. Therefore, the outcome for the average person in Afghanistan is WORSE. But we're getting the pipelines we wanted. So the outcome for our oil companies is BETTER. Aren't you the one who keeps saying that it isn't about the oil? It certainly isn't about the PEOPLE over there. But you say it IS about the people over there. And now you're changing your story? Just like before.
Post #82,106 by boxley 2/16/03 6:19:13 PM Reply	links on the LESS safe for average people? than taliban? will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] \ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
Post #82,128 by Ashton 2/16/03 9:25:19 PM Reply	IF no link THEN switch-off mind. Not even usual slapstick..
Post #82,133 by Brandioch 2/16/03 9:37:20 PM Reply	Your logic is flawed. If no link, disregard. If link, disregard. As I've said before, my position can be changed with one simple item. Nuke/chem/bio found by the inspectors. Boxley's position can be changed with one simple item. Well, actually, there is no way for Boxley to believe that Iraq is not a threat. If I did provide a link showing that the average person in Afghanistan was worse off today than under the Taliban...... Do you honestly think that Boxley would alter his position regarding our invasion of Iraq? I don't.
Post #82,142 by boxley 2/16/03 9:49:53 PM Reply	one has nothing to do with the other If the common people are worse off now than under the taliban I would be interested. You are correct I would not change my mind on Iraq because of it. There are in my opinion too disimilar countries and the people have different psychologies. If you have info about common folks being worse off now please post. That is an issue that should and could stand on its own. Please exclude armed and prisoners being mistreated, that is covered by another thread and isnt what I would call the common afghani. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] \ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
Post #82,171 by Another Scott 2/16/03 10:40:35 PM Reply	I assume you didn't mean this. As I've said before, my position can be changed with one simple item. Nuke/chem/bio found by the inspectors. [link\|http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2763653.stm\|Blix's February 14 address to the UN SC]: The laboratory quantity of thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor, which we found at another site, has also been destroyed. I guess that means you're on Boxley's side now? >:-) Cheers, Scott.
Post #82,173 by boxley 2/16/03 10:42:36 PM Reply	doesnt count because the inspectors found it will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] \ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
Post #82,238 by Brandioch 2/17/03 11:40:21 AM Reply	Correct me if I'm wrong. But wasn't that found during the FIRST inspections. The ones right after the war. And it wasn't moved nor destroyed. That was why the inspectors "found" it again.
Post #82,244 by Another Scott 2/17/03 12:01:37 PM Reply	My understanding is that it was found recently. Blix wasn't in charge of UNSCOM so I don't know why he would say "we" if he were refering to that. Lots of precursors and finished agents were found by UNSCOM. My impression was that UNMOVIC (the current inspection system) found the thiodiglycol. I've seen nothing to indicate that Blix was referring to the thiodiglycol as being previously known. Have you? Cheers, Scott.
Post #82,283 by Brandioch 2/17/03 3:54:17 PM Reply	I thought it was found before. I know Iraq imported tons of it from the US prior to the First Gulf War. [link\|http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:HRlFuVmBtYgC:www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/program.htm+thiodiglycol+iraq&hl=en&ie=UTF-8\|google cache] Here's the best reference I could find for that. It states "laboratory quantities". From Blix's speech: [link\|http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_166561,00130018.htm\|Here] We have now commenced the process of destroying approximately 50 litres of mustard gas declared by Iraq that was being kept under UNMOVIC seal at the Muthanna site. One-third of the quantity has already been destroyed. The laboratory quantity of thiodiglycol, a mustard gas precursor, which we found at another site, has also been destroyed.
Post #82,293 by Another Scott 2/17/03 5:06:13 PM Reply	Your Blix cite is the same as mine. :-) They both cite his UN SC presentation on the 14th. I think the most straight-forward reading is that UNMOVIC - not UNSCOM - found the thiodiglycol material, and it was found recently. We may have to agree to disagree. The FAS links are good. One of them, [link\|http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/cw/produce.htm\|here] says: Drums of thiodiglycol, produced in the United States and illegally diverted from their intended recipients, were found by international inspectors after the Gulf War at Iraqi CW production sites. [link\|http://www.cbwinfo.com/Chemical/Precursors/p1.html\|This] link lists some of the industrial uses of thiodiglycol. It's perfectly reasonable for the US to have shipped the material to Iraq for peaceful industrial purposes. (The link says 1 M pounds are produced in the US annually and the US no longer produces chemical weapons.) Obviously the people approving the export should have been more congnizant of its potential of being diverted for military uses, and in retrospect the export should have been forbidden. Tangentially related to this topic is another interesting link on the FAS site [link\|http://www.fas.org/irp/gulf/af/970211/970207_aadbc_001.html\|here]. It seems to be a DOD cable from CENTAF (US Central Command Air Force) from September 1990 discussing the history of Iraq's unconventional weapons programs. It says they started work on chemical weapons in the 1960s. 2. \t (U) IRAQ'S CHEMICAL PROGRAM A. \tIRAQ APPEARS TO HAVE INITIATED ITS CHEMICAL WEAPONS' PROGRAM IN THE 1960'S. BY 1985, IRAQ WAS PRODUCING A NUMBER OF CHEMICAL AGENTS, INCLUDING MUSTARD GAS AND TWO DIFFERENT TYPES OF NERVE AGENTS. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT IRAQ HAS DEVELOPED A CHEMICAL AGENT PRODUCTION CAPACITY OF 700 TONS PER YEAR. SOME OTHER ESTIMATES HAVE THE PRODUCTION CAPACITY 20 TIMES LARGER. B. \tTHE CHEMICAL AGENT USED MOST COMMONLY DURING THE IRAN-IRAQ WAR WAS MUSTARD GAS. BY 1985, AT A SMALL PLANT IN SAMARRA, THE IRAQIS WERE CAPABLE OF PRODUCING ABOUT 50 TONS OF MUSTARD GAS PER YEAR. THOUGH ETHYLENE IS THE BASE ELEMENT IN THE PRODUCTION OF MUSTARD GAS, IT IS THIODIGLYCOL THAT IS THE MOST COMMON PRECURSOR. INITIALLY, IRAQ HAD TO RELY ON WESTERN EUROPE AND THE UNITED STATES FOR THIS IMPORTANT PRECUSOR AGENT. HOWEVER, IRAQ NO LONGER RELIES - ON IMPORTS OF THIODIGLYCOL, DUE TO SELF SUFFICIENCY. ABOUT ONE TON OF THIODIGLYCOL MAKES ONE TON OF MUSTARD GAS. THE OTHER KEY INGREDIENT, HYDROCHLORIC ACID, CAN BE OBTAINED ON THE OPEN MARKET. (Double-spaced to try to make it easier to read.) FWIW. Cheers, Scott.
Post #82,320 by Brandioch 2/17/03 9:35:52 PM Reply	I like the FAS site. Particularly near the end. When the Iraqis produced chemical munitions they appeared to adhere to a \ufffdmake and use\ufffd regimen. Judging by the information Iraq gave the United Nations, later verified by on-site inspections, Iraq had poor product quality for their nerve agents. This low quality was likely due to a lack of purification. They had to get the agent to the front promptly or have it degrade in the munition. This problem would have been less severe in their mustard rounds because of less aggressive impurities. The problem of degradation inhibited their ability to deploy and employ nerve weapons but probably did not have a great effect on their use of mustard. Using their weapons soon after production probably worked well in the Iran-Iraq War, where the skies over Iraq were controlled by the Iraqis. Unfortunately for the Iraqis, loss of air control in the Gulf meant the weapons could never reach the front. The chemical munitions found in Iraq after the Gulf War contained badly deteriorated agents and a significant proportion were visibly leaking. That matches what I had heard before. It's also possible that they've managed to beat their storage problems. But then they'd also need to have the facilities to manufacture quantities of these agents. And so far, none have been located. Which is why I replied to Boxley that way. The Iraqis MIGHT have agents, but if they do, I believe they have small quantities of them (aka "laboratory quantities") and that these will not pose any real threat (read: "the threat posed by the chemical agents will be less than the threat posed by conventional weapons"). Which is the reason, I believe, that the inspectors are having such a hard time finding any. It's not too difficult to find a ton of something. It's a lot harder to find a quart. Now, on the other hand, Iraq still has the KNOWLEDGE of how to produce these agents. And, as you've noted, the ingrediants are not that unusual for an industrial nation.
Post #82,438 by marlowe 2/18/03 1:44:17 PM Reply	In other words, you were just talking out of yer ass again. No oil for TotalFinaElf! CHICKENHAWK! Scourge of clucking hens everywhere! Victory is the answer. There are no alternatives. [link\|http://www.angelfire.com/ca3/marlowe/index.html\|http://www.angelfire...arlowe/index.html]
Post #82,199 by dmarker 2/16/03 11:42:38 PM Reply	Box, I can back Brandi on his having posted links on this issue & topic. I read a set he put here in recents days. I believe he may be right in implying they were/are a waste on you. Cheers Doug
Post #82,203 by boxley 2/16/03 11:50:36 PM Reply	My apologies I thought the links refered to POW's I must have missed the common man links. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] \ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar
Post #82,204 by SpiceWare 2/16/03 11:59:27 PM Reply	correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the [link\|http://www.purpleberets.org/international_gender_apartheid.html\|women] where very well off under the Taliban. Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #82,239 by Brandioch 2/17/03 11:46:41 AM Reply	And now they'r in danger if they leave the cities. The countryside is controlled by warlords. Women are particularly at risk.
Post #82,268 by SpiceWare 2/17/03 2:26:41 PM Reply	is that a correction? Before, women in the country and city were at risk. Now, those in the country. While not a good situation, how is the average worse than before? Darrell Spice, Jr. [link\|http://www.spiceware.org/\|SpiceWare] - We don't do Windows, it's too much of a chore
Post #82,289 by Ashton 2/17/03 4:40:41 PM Reply	Does this bear parsing? IF.. warlords are on the ascendancy, need their perennial habits be labelled precisely as Taliban? Personally, I don't see many generalizations as can stick -today- re Afgh. It is in flux, and the habits, actions of occupying troops are as changeable as -- how desperate Dubya becomes within the next hornets nest he pitches rocks at. We won't know for years if there is a net improvement for females (or anyone). Afgh. will fade from Murican attention span as each new Excitement commands it. It's how we are. Ashton
Post #82,296 by boxley 2/17/03 5:13:41 PM Reply	Read the cite at the start of the thread what is happening now is precisely the nature of the beast. Point of posting. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org] \ufffdOmni Gaul Delenda est!\ufffd Ceasar

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