I'm going to try the positive approach

Post #80,755 by tseliot 2/10/03 7:21:53 PM 2/11/03 11:02:25 AM Reply	I'm going to try the positive approach Norm, it seems this post is causing some reaction from the group. I'm certainly not a perfect poster but I'd like to recommend some things to you; I hope you can take them for an effort at providing you another perspective and some tools to do your own damage control. Anyway, what I would say is: all forums are different and have their own "tone". Personally, I enjoy the very highly-maintained signal-to-noise ratio here: it's extremely rare to find something like that in a forum with such a broad scope. So when I post, I try to reflect that. I will only post under the following conditions/circumstances: 1. If I feel I have something to say that is new to someone, I will say it. If I truly believe everyone already knows/agrees with what I have to say, it's defined as "noise" and best left unsaid. 2. If I feel that someone else can and probably will say it better, I let them. 3. If I feel I'm not yet able to articulate my point clearly, I'll wait until I can. 4. I try to limit my introduction of ideas to those that directly serve the topic at hand. I have zillions of ideas and mental connections and even showtunes running through my head when I read someone else's post, but that doesn't mean they all serve the topic. 5. When I bring up an issue, I do my best to be explicit in how that relates to the topic. So, if you'll permit me to apply those rules to this example: Why does that guy look French? Coincidence or not? This is contrary to guideline #5. It's not clear what that observation has to do with the topic. If you have an idea of why he looks French and wish to discuss it, tell us your idea and back it up. If you have no idea and want an answer (which I doubt), rephrase it: "What's the importance of the Frenchman on the picture?" If you want to emphasize a national stereotype (which violates #1), don't post. Also if you have a girlfriend or wife, why masterbate when you can get the real thing? :) Make love not war! See #4. This adds nothing to the topic. Why verbally masterbate [sic] when you can discuss the real thing? Should we really visit: [link\|http://www.masterbateforpeace.com/\|http://www.masterbateforpeace.com/] or does the site not exist? I did not visit it yet. This violates guideline #3. Go visit the site, draw a conclusion about its merits, and then post that. Not sure why I would do so? This is the only "discussion" I would want to have on this issue. I'm not sure either why marlowe decided it was worth posting, so I filtered it out and moved on. If you truly want to discuss the merits of his post and/or link, I recommend (next time) you start with this line, and then sign your post immediately afterward. The rest was noise drowning out the signal. But if you did that, you'd run into guideline #1 again (you have to assume you're not the only one who wondered why it was posted), and IMO it would just be better to not post until you go research and get some more information on the link. Let inscrutable posts drift on by if you can. Again, this is meant in a spirit of analysis, not attack. Therefore, I expect a discussion from you, not a defense. If all I get is a defense, I'll have no recourse but to treat it as noise and filter it out. This took me probably twenty minutes to compose; if you don't take at least ten minutes to compose (and edit) your response, expect the same filtering from me. Just want to be clear on my expectations. Edit: obviously some of this flexes depending on the forum. The Water Cooler, in particular, is a bit more free-form to me. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10 Edited by tseliot Feb. 11, 2003, 11:02:25 AM EST I'm going to try the positive approach Norm, it seems this post is causing some reaction from the group. I'm certainly not a perfect poster but I'd like to recommend some things to you; I hope you can take them for an effort at providing you another perspective and some tools to do your own damage control. Anyway, what I would say is: all forums are different and have their own "tone". Personally, I enjoy the very highly-maintained signal-to-noise ratio here: it's extremely rare to find something like that in a forum with such a broad scope. So when I post, I try to reflect that. I will only post under the following conditions/circumstances: 1. If I feel I have something to say that is new to someone, I will say it. If I truly believe everyone already knows/agrees with what I have to say, it's defined as "noise" and best left unsaid. 2. If I feel that someone else can and probably will say it better, I let them. 3. If I feel I'm not yet able to articulate my point clearly, I'll wait until I can. 4. I try to limit my introduction of ideas to those that directly serve the topic at hand. I have zillions of ideas and mental connections and even showtunes running through my head when I read someone else's post, but that doesn't mean they all serve the topic. 5. When I bring up an issue, I do my best to be explicit in how that relates to the topic. So, if you'll permit me to apply those rules to this example: Why does that guy look French? Coincidence or not? This is contrary to guideline #5. It's not clear what that observation has to do with the topic. If you have an idea of why he looks French and wish to discuss it, tell us your idea and back it up. If you have no idea and want an answer (which I doubt), rephrase it: "What's the importance of the Frenchman on the picture?" If you want to emphasize a national stereotype (which violates #1), don't post. Also if you have a girlfriend or wife, why masterbate when you can get the real thing? :) Make love not war! See #4. This adds nothing to the topic. Why verbally masterbate [sic] when you can discuss the real thing? Should we really visit: [link\|http://www.masterbateforpeace.com/\|http://www.masterbateforpeace.com/] or does the site not exist? I did not visit it yet. This violates guideline #3. Go visit the site, draw a conclusion about its merits, and then post that. Not sure why I would do so? This is the only "discussion" I would want to have on this issue. I'm not sure either why marlowe decided it was worth posting, so I filtered it out and moved on. If you truly want to discuss the merits of his post and/or link, I recommend (next time) you start with this line, and then sign your post immediately afterward. The rest was noise drowning out the signal. But if you did that, you'd run into guideline #1 again (you have to assume you're not the only one who wondered why it was posted), and IMO it would just be better to not post until you go research and get some more information on the link. Let inscrutable posts drift on by if you can. Again, this is meant in a spirit of analysis, not attack. Therefore, I expect a discussion from you, not a defense. If all I get is a defense, I'll have no recourse but to treat it as noise and filter it out. This took me probably twenty minutes to compose; if you don't take at least ten minutes to compose (and edit) your response, expect the same filtering from me. Just want to be clear on my expectations. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10 Collapse All History
Post #80,859 by dmarker 2/11/03 7:16:04 AM Reply	Shit that was inspirational - we can all learn <g> seriously. I like it but it is too bloody good for FLAME Quarantine forum <g> Cheers Doug
Post #80,908 by tseliot 2/11/03 11:01:09 AM Reply	Would've put it in flame off but I hate that branching crap! There. A little flame. Better? ;) Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #80,919 by admin 2/11/03 11:30:10 AM Reply	Bite me. Spawn of Right Shift. Go back to the pit of Long Thread Load Times from whence you came. BTW, due to enhanced security measures here, you will now have to answer the following question in order to post: What is the airspeed of an unladen swallow? Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #80,926 by tseliot 2/11/03 11:55:06 AM Reply	Get bent. Right shift is vastly preferable to having to mark two forums read now every time drook CCLRPD. ObWhat do you mean? An African or European swallow? Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #80,928 by drewk 2/11/03 11:59:18 AM Reply	Besides the fact that you just got kicked ... ObWhat do you mean? An African or European swallow? "Aaaaaaauuuuuuuuuugggh ..." Well you could just mark the suggestions forum read without reading it. Must not branch reply === Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978\|Andrew Grygus]
Post #80,930 by admin 2/11/03 12:00:40 PM Reply	You know you love it. (new thread) Created as new thread #80929 titled [link\|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=80929\|You know you love it.] Regards, -scott anderson "Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson..."
Post #81,065 by orion 2/11/03 11:22:32 PM Reply	Thanks much better. Just that my attention span is usually a few minutes, after that I lose focus of what I was trying to write. If I spend 20 minutes on a post, I am going to get really confused over it. I usually spend no more than 3 minutes on a post in looking it over and thinking about it. If I have to spend 20 minutes, I might as well not post and watch some TV instead. #1 I don't always know what other people know. Sorry I am not born with ESP nor did I develop it over the 34 plus years of my life. Sometimes I don't read all the forums before I make a post, ala the news about the Dell Dude on the Open Forum posted by me before I read the News Forum where someone else posted it. When I took a writing class, I was told to assume that the reader knows nothing about what I am writing about. Really hard to break that habit. #2 How do I know if someone else could say it better? Again no ESP here. I tend to forget who knows what and trivial details about the other posters. So then it is up to me to make the post as I forgot if there is anyone who can post it better than me. #3 I can articulate the point, just that in a way that few people can understand. I guess my 6th grade redderick isn't good enough for some people? I make points that apparently a dozen or so people out of 350+ on here cannot understand or find. #4 I try to stay on topic, I really do. There are some sidebar issues, and related topics that I do wander over to from time to time. #5 Relativity is relative, if I didn't think it relates to the topic somehow, I am not going to use it. Why should I explain something that even a six year old can comprehend as relating to the topic? It just seems to me that explaining how something relates to the topic is just more noise. I don't fully understand these five concepts, but I did make remarks to them in ways I think that I understand them. By tomorrow I'll have forgotten them. No joke, my memory is just that bad. [link\|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey\| New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
Post #81,069 by boxley 2/11/03 11:43:04 PM Reply	This is not a flame and I am breaking my rule of talking to you. Pay attention Just that my attention span is usually a few minutes, after that I lose focus of what I was trying to write. If I spend 20 minutes on a post, I am going to get really confused over it. I usually spend no more than 3 minutes on a post in looking it over and thinking about it. If I have to spend 20 minutes, I might as well not post and watch some TV instead. with this disability how the fuck can you think you can write computer code for a living? This explains issues with employers. I am not saying you were always like this but am saying you need to stay on disability or find another method of making a living. Coding is just writing a novel on guidelines presented and demanded by others in a language other than english. If you have dificulty writing a post you should not be writing short stories in a language that is not your primary. Take it for what its worth. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #81,180 by orion 2/12/03 12:38:13 PM Reply	Once again your wise wisdom rings true I am trying to write computer code, but I can only work a few lines at a time. This seems to take me longer than I had been able to do before. It also explains why I am having problems reading up on Smalltalk and Delphi/Kylix. I am looking for another field, but I am not sure what I could do for a living. Once I get accepted into to a college, I am going to take an aptitude test with them and find a new major and see if I can get a degree in a different field. See if I can hanlde at most half-time courses. By writing code for myself, it won't matter how long it takes to get it done. I can take as long as I want to. Then later on after it is done, I can sell it if I want to. But so far, writing code has been very difficult for me. Thanks for the tip. [link\|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey\| New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
Post #81,214 by tseliot 2/12/03 4:04:46 PM Reply	Hardest thing I've ever written on this board #1 I don't always know what other people know. Sorry I am not born with ESP nor did I develop it over the 34 plus years of my life. I didn't intend that in the meaning of ESP quite so much as a shared social history. You've been here long enough that you should have a handle on the particular expertise and even pet peeves of the more active posters, at least. If it's an issue of memory, well, see below. When I took a writing class, I was told to assume that the reader knows nothing about what I am writing about. Really hard to break that habit. Once you have decided to write something, sure, apply that rule. It's a great one. It's the decision about whether to write or not that's at issue, here, which obeys different rules. #2 How do I know if someone else could say it better? Again no ESP here. I tend to forget who knows what and trivial details about the other posters. So then it is up to me to make the post as I forgot if there is anyone who can post it better than me. Same as above. #3 I can articulate the point, just that in a way that few people can understand. I guess my 6th grade redderick isn't good enough for some people? I make points that apparently a dozen or so people out of 350+ on here cannot understand or find. Rhetoric is a factor, but given your self-description re: memory issues and such, perhaps it's more an issue of taking the time to compose and edit, which exceeds the attention span? Just a guess. #4 I try to stay on topic, I really do. There are some sidebar issues, and related topics that I do wander over to from time to time. I've noticed in the past couple of days you've had some very on-track posts, and complimented you on one at least. Hope it gave you some encouragement and perhaps a concrete positive example. #5 Relativity is relative, if I didn't think it relates to the topic somehow, I am not going to use it. Why should I explain something that even a six year old can comprehend as relating to the topic? It just seems to me that explaining how something relates to the topic is just more noise. I'd simply ask that you be more intentional about your reasons for writing. We live in a society that is becoming more linguistically, culturally, and yes, even educationally more diverse every single day. Our legal and financial systems, for example, have become much more verbose as a reaction. This is commonly referred to as a "low-context society", meaning the amount of life experiences we all share is at a low level. A communicator, therefore, is forced to either make his discourse more explicit or live with a reduced audience. I would hope you choose the first option, but it's up to you. In addition, I'm of the opinion that if you can't write out how your comments relate to the topic, then they probably don't relate as well as you think they did. I've had this happen to me more than once. I don't fully understand these five concepts, but I did make remarks to them in ways I think that I understand them. Thank you for your considered response. Really! Thanks! Just that my attention span is usually a few minutes...If I spend 20 minutes on a post, I am going to get really confused over it...If I have to spend 20 minutes, I might as well not post and watch some TV instead...By tomorrow I'll have forgotten...No joke, my memory is just that bad. Then, nothing personal, but I'm not sure this is the board for you any longer. I know you've made some friends here and that's fine. But your current abilities seem opposed to continuing a healthy dialogue in this particular setting. I'm not trying to put you down or make comments on your personal worth, but suggest that you have changed (as I think you'll agree, and have said so in many posts), and no longer have a good fit with this community. Trying to force that issue is not turning out very well. It's not a personal issue, its a technical one. It's like being a newlywed and talking to a singles group--both have valid lifestyles, etc. but simply aren't gong to go out for pizza a lot. I have this same issue with my own sister; she has a five-year-old and we don't have the same conversations anymore--she doesn't have the same attention span, interests, or interpersonal toolkit she did while she was getting her Master's in speech pathology: those were some good conversations! I consider you a friend, but there's a difference between being a friend of mine and being someone with whom I enjoy conversing daily. Sorry, this sounds harsh, but please believe it is said in an effort to serve your best interests, as a friend. I'd like to continue on for another sixteen paragraphs, but they would all say the same thing. If this drives you to anger or frustration, I apologize; it's not meant to. I want you to be happy, but I'm convinced that IWETHEY is not a place where that's going to be easily acheivable for you. Call it Norman-bashing if you can't see it any other way; I hope you see it as advice from a friend. If you decide to stay and glean nothing else from this post, at least think about finding some way not to wrap your own self-image/self-worth in our responses; find something else, something better, to invest in in that way... Regards, Bob P.S. I'd appreciate it if some of the other participants here gave their comments, even if it's just an agree/disagree. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #81,222 by Silverlock 2/12/03 4:25:35 PM Reply	Well said. I'm not sure I agree about this not being the place for Norm anymore though. I would rather he just not try so hard. Post one or two sentence messages. Don't think it needs to be an essay. And ferchrissakes, stay on the meds. How many lives per gallon? --Sign outside of various churches
Post #81,223 by tseliot 2/12/03 4:26:51 PM Reply	Maybe so. Thanks for the input. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #81,229 by CRConrad 2/12/03 5:07:04 PM Reply	I would of course not have said it so nicely, but... ...it basically amounts to the same thing, anyway, IMO. To be specific, I was thinking about replying to Norm's first paragraph (Hmm -- should I do it in another post? Naah, can't be arsed to; began writing this one already.), something along these lines: [Quoting Norm:] Just that my attention span is usually a few minutes...If I spend 20 minutes on a post, I am going to get really confused over it...If I have to spend 20 minutes, I might as well not post and watch some TV instead...By tomorrow I'll have forgotten...No joke, my memory is just that bad. [CRConrad's reply:] Well, then fucking well DO THAT, THEN: Go watch some TV, and DON'T fucking post your drivel here! If you're too lazy, stupid, or loony to take the time to write a decent post, then we don't want to fucking SEE it. So, fer fuck's sake, piss off, and stay off! Now, you may or may not think that's the same as your immediately following quote... But the way I see it, it is, in its actual intent, the same as these bits: ...I'm not sure this is the board for you any longer. [...] your current abilities seem opposed to continuing a healthy dialogue in this particular setting. [...] and no longer have a good fit with this community. Trying to force that issue is not turning out very well. [...] I'm convinced that IWETHEY is not a place where that's going to be easily acheivable for you. Call it Norman-bashing if you can't see it any other way... Same thing, only more nicely put, innit? The only difference being, that I don't subscribe to these nobler feelings of Bob's: ...I consider you a friend, but there's a difference between being a friend of mine and being someone with whom I enjoy conversing daily. Sorry, this sounds harsh, but please believe it is said in an effort to serve your best interests, as a friend. I'd like to continue on for another sixteen paragraphs, but they would all say the same thing. If this drives you to anger or frustration, I apologize; it's not meant to. [...] I want you to be happy... Sorry, nope, I don't consider Norm a friend any more (if I ever did), and as such, don't give much of a hoot about his best interests vs his anger or frustration; and I certainly don't apologize for that. (Why, am I somehow required to feel friendly towards him?!? Naah, didn't think so...) I tried to impart a clue or two, in an at least somewhat more friendly fashion, for what felt like sixteen hundred paragraphs, a year or so ago... It didn't help, so I wrote him off. Still hasn't, AFAICS, so he'll stay written-off in my book. (Sorry, but if anyone was looking for any "Christian Charity" from me, they must'a got me mixed up with some other guy...) P.S. I'd appreciate it if some of the other participants here gave their comments, even if it's just an agree/disagree. OK, I think I'm agreeing with you, at least on the major point of your post... Now it only remains to be seen whether you think that's what I'm doing. And, hey, don't blame me -- you asked. [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #81,235 by tseliot 2/12/03 5:25:24 PM Reply	I think you're absolutely correct on all points. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #81,238 by CRConrad 2/12/03 5:33:59 PM Reply	There's some semi-heavy sarcasm embedded in that, right? Not that I have any problem with that; the points you only slyly -- or, inadvertently? -- imply are quite appropriate and true. On the contrary: As something of a connoisseur of sarcasm, I only wanted to let you know I appreciate it. :-) [link\|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode\|Christian R. Conrad] (I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.) Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link\|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575\|Ashton Brown]
Post #81,241 by tseliot 2/12/03 5:40:14 PM Reply	Hahaha. No, I was completely sincere. I don't have any problem with your point-of-view. I think you and I said basically the same thing with regards to the issue of posting-style and -content. We simply have different interpersonal attitudes toward Norm, which color the way we express those central points. If I didn't care about him or didn't see him as a friend, I might've expressed it more similarly to the way you did. But thanks for inferring cleverness on my part. :) Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #81,275 by Ashton 2/12/03 9:07:18 PM Reply	Believe these two POVs cover the range quite well. 0 to add.
Post #81,233 by boxley 2/12/03 5:13:45 PM Reply	All are welcome, some are read will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #81,323 by orion 2/12/03 11:21:49 PM Reply	What would be a forum for me to participate in? I don't seem to fit in well at Slashdot or Kuro5hin either. If I leave here, what do I do about my addiction to post to a group of people and try to fit in? I obviously don't fit in here anymore? What forums could I possibly fit in with? [link\|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey\| New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
Post #81,326 by boxley 2/12/03 11:28:53 PM Reply	goto sleazyboard [link\|http://www.ezboard.com/\|http://www.ezboard.com/] use the find function on topics you like. Join also feel free to post here as freedom of speech is important. Do not be surprised if people do not respond as you wish see freedom of speech is important. thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] questions, help? [link\|mailto:pappas@catholic.org\|email pappas at catholic.org]
Post #81,417 by orion 2/13/03 12:21:08 PM Reply	I am there I even created my own Sleazyboard, but only a few wanted to join it. Nobody posts in there. I joined up with other Sleazyboards but it just didn't feel right, like nobody wanted to read what I posted. I'll keep on trying. [link\|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey\| New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
Post #81,470 by rcareaga 2/13/03 2:48:08 PM Reply	Pay no attention to the floating lightbulb "I joined up with other Sleazyboards but it just didn't feel right, like nobody wanted to read what I posted." Anyone else would have a sudden moment of illumination here, but this one has not, I fear, drawn the obvious conclusion (and please--enough about your "addiction" to posting. Do people really take that kind of cheesy pop-psych seriously anymore?). [link\|http://www.despair.com/demotivators/dysfunction.html\|http://www.despair.c.../dysfunction.html] cordially, "Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
Post #81,487 by CRConrad 2/13/03 3:34:48 PM Reply	Uh, well, actually, uhm, to be perfectly honest...
Post #81,442 by tseliot 2/13/03 1:19:46 PM Reply	If memory is the issue Fundamental disconnect I am seeing (and I believe you are stating, correct me if I'm wrong) is that you have a problem with memory. This is one of the longest-term memory boards around. I'd recommend finding a board with either 1) enough turnover, or 2) so many people, that there is no expectation of remembering what any given poster has written from day to day. Shorter conversations. Some of the trade rags' forums operate this way, especially the bigger ones. Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance - Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation. BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
Post #82,141 by orion 2/16/03 9:48:18 PM Reply	Memory is an issue this may be my last post, my DSL got dropped anyway and I had to use Juno to get on to check my email. I should be switched over to a new DSL as DirecTV is getting out of the DSL business. K5, they hate me there, USENET will just get me spammed. I will conotnue to look for other places. Nobody seems to mind me posting to the IWE Forums so far as "Orion Blastar Jr." (Someone took Orion Blastar there already!) so maybe I can post there from time to time? [link\|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey\| New and improved, Chicken Delvits!]
Post #81,908 by Another Scott 2/15/03 11:02:12 AM Reply	Post to your K5 diary or USENET. If you want to get your thoughts out there for people to read if they want, that's the perfect place. It'll give you a persistent bit of storage for your posts and maybe let you see how you change over time. It'll be a benefit to you even if no-one else reads it. It'll let you talk about whatever you want whenever you want. No-one will care if you flip into stream-of-consciousness mode for page after page. That's what a diary is for in many cases. :-) If you want to participate in back-and-forth discussions with people, you need to find a discussion board where you fit in with the people there or you need to find a board where you can stay on topic. Have you tried USENET recently? There are thousands of places where you can have detailed, focused discussion if you want (e.g. soc.support.depression or microsoft.public.vb.general.discussion) or catch-all general discussions that are all over the map (and occasional dumping places for OT rants e.g. misc.misc, talk.bizarre). I'd recommend your K5 diary myself. Just exercise some appropriate restraint and you'll be fine anywhere (even here). My $0.02. Cheers, Scott.

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