Post #77,533
1/28/03 10:00:00 AM
|
getting started on that subject
Politicians *RUNNING* the war is what *MADE* it what it was... rather than *HAVING* it run by REAL tacticians
And the outcome would have been different how, exactly, or even approximately? The Vietnamese meekly giving up and going home (oops, they were already home) in the face of good old-fashioned American tactical know-how? The South Vietnamese flag flying proudly to the present day over the bars and brothels of Saigon? Would I not have half a dozen fine Vietnamese restaurants within reasonable distance of my home today?
BTW, the SoVietnamese official in the famous Tet Offensive photo--the one performing blunt-trauma brain surgery on an unhappy street fighter--spent his later years running a pizza joint in, I believe, Alexandria VA. One can imagine the following exchange:
Irate Customer: I distinctly said no anchovies! I demand to see the manager!
Nervous Waiter: That's really not a good idea.
IC: I insist, dammit!
NW (shrugging): Well, OK...
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
|
Post #77,535
1/28/03 10:09:07 AM
|
Haw! Oh, and marginally OT
Irate Customer: I distinctly said no anchovies! I demand to see the manager!
Nervous Waiter: That's really not a good idea. I wonder if he would have appreciated the joke. You do know the story behind that photo, don't you? Few people do, because it was so at odds with the visceral reaction it caused. (And won it the Pulitzer, IIRC. [And all this if from memory from several years back.]) The official was responding to reports of violence in "his" area. Found several houses full of dead people. Tracked down the perps, but not before walking in on his own just-killed family. Found the head of the group responsible and executed him. It wasn't generally known at the time if he was aware of the camera, or if it would have made any difference if he had. ===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
|
Post #77,538
1/28/03 10:17:17 AM
|
Yeppers... you are right...
That picture out of context really made people rail... (rale, rahl, rhale?)
And to this day, I know people that are still extrememly anti-SV and anti-VC because of that *SINGLE* photo... My father in-law being one of them. (Him being 77 this year)
Oh well, you can't change them folks opinion anyway.
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberstrategy-draft.html|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
|
Post #77,544
1/28/03 10:52:41 AM
|
That SV officer was Gen Loan - remeber it well - story ...
THE GENERAL LOAN EXECUTION
(from an Aussie web site on the Vietnam war)
While discussing POWs, we should look at the famous (or infamous) photograph of SVN's General Loan executing a VC POW. The usual explanation tells us that the high ranking SVN officer took a VC prisoner out into the street and shot him in the head in front of the photographers and journalists to show other VC what awaited them if captured.
Here are some of the other facts, which are rarely revealed:
General Loan was, in fact, the Chief of the National Police - he was not acting in an Army capacity but in a Police capacity.
Loan was the target of a VC unit sent in to Saigon to assassinate him.
The VC unit failed to locate Loan on the day, but broke instead into the home of one of his best friends, a Colonel in the National Police.
The VC unit then murdered the Colonel, his wife and their six young children, some of who were godchildren to Loan.
SVN Marines discovered and engaged the unit and all but one of the VC were killed.
The remaining one was found to be carrying a pistol, indicating he was the unit's leader.
He was taken directly to Loan.
The VC was in civilian clothes on a terrorist mission in a city under Police, not Army, jurisdiction.
When told of the circumstances of the capture, Loan summarily executed him.
The National Chief of Police acted within his powers in the summary execution.
Cheers
Doug Marker
|
Post #77,597
1/28/03 2:35:44 PM
|
Whose ox?
(Yes, I did know, in broad outline, the story of General Loan)
The VC was in civilian clothes on a terrorist mission in a city under Police, not Army, jurisdiction.
Terrorist, freedom fighter, kinda depends which horse yer backin' don't it? The Vietnamese probably think of the guy as a freedom fighter. By the same token, there are some churlish Nicaraguans who to this day insist that the Contras were thugs and terrorists, whereas we norteamericanos know they were fighting to uphold Christian values and United Fruit.
I still don't believe that heightened American determination, a united home front and superhuman levels of tactical savvy brought to bear on the late unpleasantness in Southeast Asia would have yielded a happy outcome there: we'd have either turned the place into a charnel house or we'd be fighting to hold our satrap upright to this day.
Incidentally, has anyone noticed that in most of the military conflicts of the twentieth century the side with the snazzier officers' tailoring almost always finished up the war variously being piped aboard the USS Missouri, fleeing to exile, having senior government figures hanged, or departing the theatre of battle via the embassy roof? Why is this, do you suppose?
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
|
Post #77,634
1/28/03 5:42:58 PM
|
My thoughts
Incidentally, has anyone noticed that in most of the military conflicts of the twentieth century the side with the snazzier officers' tailoring almost always finished up the war variously being piped aboard the USS Missouri, fleeing to exile, having senior government figures hanged, or departing the theatre of battle via the embassy roof? Why is this, do you suppose? The ones with the snazzy uniforms are the ones who like the idea of playing soldier. Emphasis on "playing." The ones who become good at it good at it are the ones who have come to realize that no one does this shit on purpose if they can avoid it. This second type finds creative -- and often ruthless, c'est la vie -- ways of ending things quickly. ===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
|
Post #77,654
1/28/03 8:44:24 PM
|
snazzy uniforms
The ones with the snazzy uniforms are the ones who like the idea of playing soldier. Emphasis on "playing."
When I spoke of twentieth century military tailoring for officers, I had particularly in mind the uniformed Germans ca. 1939-1945, who, you must acknowledge, set the gold (or field-grey) standard for these outfits, and whose conduct of the war was not regarded as dilettantish or, for that matter, wanting in ruthlessness or the other martial virtues. I fear we must look elsewhere for the reason that custom-made boots lose to Ho Chi Minh sandals.
Incidentally--the good guys (if one side or the other may be granted this designation) prevailed in Vietnam. I danced, comrades, literally danced in front of the SF Chronicle vending machine on the morning in 1975 they featured the helicopters lifting off from the embassy roof, and the memory still gives me a serious case of the warm-and-fuzzies. We were definitely on the wrong side of history in that dustup, as the Marxists maintained at the time--even though history, that great joker, had a few dimensions not then anticipated by the communist powers of the day.
cordially,
"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
|
Post #77,758
1/29/03 9:03:17 AM
|
Beg to differ
When I spoke of twentieth century military tailoring for officers, I had particularly in mind the uniformed Germans ca. 1939-1945, who, you must acknowledge, set the gold (or field-grey) standard for these outfits, and whose conduct of the war was not regarded as dilettantish or, for that matter, wanting in ruthlessness or the other martial virtues. Rommel is probably the model soldier of that army. He is usually pictured in a dusty uniform and tanker's goggles. The ones who made the spit-and-polish a legend are the ones who imposed micromanagement on people like Rommel. I discussed here recently how the centralized command and control system played a large part in their performance at Normandy. ===
Microsoft offers them the one thing most business people will pay any price for - the ability to say "we had no choice - everyone's doing it that way." -- [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=38978|Andrew Grygus]
|
Post #77,772
1/29/03 10:08:17 AM
|
Like these pictures and caricatures:
[link|http://www.germanpow.com/images/Rommel.jpg|A Big Picture of him]
[link|http://www.feldgrau.com/rommel.jpg|The way he'd want to be remembered]
[image|http://www.american-partisan.com/images/ww2/rommel.jpg||||][image|http://www.arcobaleno.net/attualita/alamein2-rommel.jpg||||][image|http://www.isleofavalon.co.uk/GlastonburyArchive/2000/images/rommel.jpg||||][image|http://www.edunetconnect.com/cat/timemachine/images/rommel.jpg||||]
[image|http://www.tamiyausa.com/product/plastic/models/images/36305.jpg||||][image|http://members.aol.com/pewtrfig/20thcent/rommel.JPG||||][image|http://www.kevinfrancis.com/KF/photos/Rommel.jpg||||]
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberstrategy-draft.html|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
|
Post #78,308
1/31/03 4:02:55 AM
|
Curse your links, Red Barren
Speaking of atrocities, International and National (see, in the final analysis Everything IS related to everything else..)
In refreshing my memory re the great DRDOS scam, was pleased to see that ddj seems to be keeping the 1990-93 material from Andrew Shulman on-line. This led to the phrase, Raising Rivals' Costs to Achieve Power over Price and to [link|http://www.law.berkeley.edu/faculty/rubinfeldd/Antitrust/syllabus_03s.htm| here], a rich and current guide to antitrust law - surprisingly akin to some several cases involving Kodak, as well as the obv. Beast.
The intricacy of antitrust law is both fascinating and appalling - especially as recent events prove that it is moot: we can skip the reading of the several million words, henceforth. One Judge K-K has provided prima facie evidence that, when the Fix is In:
All this stuff reduces effectively to 0. So much for a legal education in Murica '02 (1902 to 2002? 1802-2002?)
Is this a mantra for the whole Kit & Kaboodle of US "law" - a $B of musty law books lining offices attended by suited $250/hr. minions (one of the larger industries?) all signifying Nothing!?
And let us not forget that this link is a Reading List for all those wannabe-$250/hr. glorifed clerks, now in training: Another larger industry in itself.
Depressing. The implications and the facts. But for those not depressed enough yet, [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//lawsuits.html| here] is a kind of sequential list of just the thousands of $250/hr. hours producing the Other utterly unproductive revelations of Beast crime -- all leading to the same quality of punishment as the above: 0.
Jeez Greg (and y'all) how's it feel to be working in a field dominated by folks so corrupt they couldn't ever be a Made Man in the Mafia? (But please to call it, bizness as usual) No wonder Muricans overall are more depressed than at any time since they started tryin to measure such stuff:
We are finding out -more and more- about ourselves ! is WHY.
Curse you Red Barren !!
Ashton
Waiting for the Bush impeachment.. same guys in charge?
|
Post #77,735
1/29/03 7:05:08 AM
|
"..for I must go see General Grant..."
",,perhaps to be his prisoner, and thought I should make my best appearence."
[link|http://www.civilwarhome.com/surrender.htm|http://www.civilwarh...com/surrender.htm]
Usually Lee wore a Colonel's uniform and was, like most officers in the C(U)SA, careless of the details.
-drl
|
Post #77,540
1/28/03 10:20:50 AM
|
I also understood he had been awake for 72 hrs fighting VC
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]
"The Mafia was preferable to the state, because it survived by providing services people actually wanted"
Murray Rothbard
|
Post #77,536
1/28/03 10:11:50 AM
|
You could say that about...
The Vietnamese meekly giving up and going home (oops, they were already home) WWII and the Germans... near the end... What did that get us? By tacticians, I meant those practiced and knowledgable in the art of War... or them being the Grandmasters in thier art...
| [link|mailto:curley95@attbi.com|greg] - Grand-Master Artist in IT | | [link|http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/|REMEMBER ED CURRY!] [link|http://pascal.rockford.com:8888/SSK@kQMsmc74S0Tw3KHQiRQmDem0gAIPAgM/edcurry/1//|ED'S GHOST SPEAKS!] | Heimatland Geheime Staatspolizei reminds:
These [link|http://www.whitehouse.gov/pcipb/cyberstrategy-draft.html|Civilian General Orders], please memorize them.
"Questions" will be asked at safety checkpoints. |
|
