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New Hopelessly simplistic.
So, it's still bad when somebody dies of famine...
I really can't see a father who says: "I don't care that my kids have nothing to eat second day in a row - we're following the best religion/political philosofy/first family in the world". In the hierarchy of needs, life sustaining and physical security come first. I can't see hungry people as being satisfied with their situation. It may be a religious or political failure, but failure nonethless.


I'm not arguing anything close to that, for or against. You seem to think I'm opposing food and politics. Not at all. I'm opposing food and economics. They are not the same thing. This has nothing to do with Maslow; it's an orthogonal discussion. At least *my* point was. Yours may not be.

Yes, it's still bad. The bloody point was that the article took a particularly economic point of view, assuming an economics which is disembedded from politics, family, and religion. There is no such entity in the Third World.

From the article:
In non-poor countries, people tend to have greater personal liberty, property rights are protected, contracts are enforced, there's rule of law and there's a market-oriented economic system rather than a socialistic one.


In [most] poor countries, there is no such concept as personal liberty (70 to 80% of the world's population live in collectivist cultures, where personal needs and even beliefs are subservient to group needs and beliefs), property rights are aggressively dominated by family and political groups, contracts are personal, not legal (think about it), and again, economics does not exist.

A "market-oriented economic system" is redundant. A "socialistic economic system" is an oxymoron at best, an ethnocentrism at worst.

The biggest Third World Poverty myth is that economics means anything to most of the world. Food, yes. Survival, yes. Fame, yes. Rise of the ingroup, yes. Economics, no. Rise of the individual, no. Collectivist cultures are, as the writer points out, usually combative to the outgroup and devoted to cultural norms to the exclusion of innovation ("they drive away talent"). That the U.S. was anything more than lucky in 1) being the most individualistic society in history and 2) focusing on economics to the exclusion of family, religion, and politics, is an untenable position. Walter Williams, esteemed economics prof, can't see past his own cultural blinders, where econ is God, State, and Father.

Many fears are born of stupidity and ignorance -
Which you should be feeding with rumour and generalisation.
BOfH, 2002 "Episode" 10
New I'll refer you to a book I've read recently
[link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0394711955/qid=1044329952/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/104-8759364-5036731?v=glance&s=books&n=507846|Here].
Describes (ampng other things :) ) how family/community values (Malaysia) and religion (Pakistan) come apart when confronted with greed. It does not say anything good about us as species, but there it is.
--

We have only 2 things to worry about: That
things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
New Thanks for tip - pithy (other) review:
15 of 19 people found the following review helpful:

5 out of 5 stars Cold,hard,frightening truth, March 5, 2002
Reviewer: timothy hilliard (see more about me) from America

In his travels throughout the Islamic world,Naipaul documented prevailing attitudes and a worldview that has finally hit home with the West. The point cannot be missed by anyone who reads this book that Islamic fundamentalism is essentially the longing for time to reverse itself so that the glory days of the old world may return again. This is symptomatic of many of the hellish regimes and political movements of the 20th century.In nazi Germany it took the form of reviving Norse gods,symbols and using pagan rituals to invoke power and fortune for the Aryan conquerors. As the constant flux of 20th century life began to set in,a large chunk of the world affected by such mass upheavel and endless change reverted to nationalistic fervor,religious fundamentalism and hopes for utopia based, oddly enough,on modern science and technology-the very means by which the modern chaos enveloped the world. Islamic fundamentalism is little more than a childish,confused,frightened,angry response to a world that doesn't any longer make sense to those who hold a medieval worldview.It has nothing positive,intelligent,useful or constructive in its ideology.It is bankrupt and doomed to bring more of the same misery,envy,hatred,poverty and warfare. This is a book everyone ought read to remind the West and any civilized people in the world what it is we are up against.
Emphasis added. I too believe that we are nowhere near mature enough to decide Which - of the things we see we can 'do' via EZ techno - we ought to do. (Building ~40K nukes (worldwide est) was clearly one of the things we never should have allowed to happen.)

Surely there are others and, imagine what is ahead -- as we place such MAD things in the hands of various bellicose village idiots..


Ashton
Tip: sell short.
New Worldwide cabal regrets some of its decisions
"...was clearly one of the things we never should have allowed to happen."

So, Ashton, who else is "in"? Hey, what's that thing in the windo..............
--

We have only 2 things to worry about: That
things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.
     Column on third world poverty and causes - (boxley) - (22)
         On the other hand, some have the goal of ensuring poverty... - (a6l6e6x) - (8)
             Re: On the other hand, some have the goal of ensuring povert - (deSitter) - (7)
                 heh, -NT - (boxley) - (3)
                     i.e. racist religion is for assholes -NT - (deSitter) - (2)
                         insert black, mexican etc for Jew and you have a liberal :) -NT - (boxley) - (1)
                             No: you have YAN meaningless slogan for mouth-breathers -NT - (Ashton)
                 I don't buy the generalization. - (a6l6e6x) - (2)
                     Not a generalization - (deSitter) - (1)
                         Thanks for parsing for me! -NT - (a6l6e6x)
         Cause of Third World poverty - (tseliot) - (12)
             Oh. Forgot to say thanks to Bruce Malina - (tseliot)
             Not everybody cares to eat 3 times a day - (Arkadiy) - (10)
                 No, he's got it right. - (inthane-chan)
                 Besides the obvious.. - (tseliot) - (8)
                     So, it's still bad when somebody dies of famine... - (Arkadiy) - (7)
                         Well said, Arkadiy! - (a6l6e6x)
                         Re: So, it's still bad when somebody dies of famine... - (deSitter) - (1)
                             Seem so free... - (Arkadiy)
                         Hopelessly simplistic. - (tseliot) - (3)
                             I'll refer you to a book I've read recently - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                 Thanks for tip - pithy (other) review: - (Ashton) - (1)
                                     Worldwide cabal regrets some of its decisions - (Arkadiy)

I'm a Mog! Half man, half dog -- I'm my own best friend!
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