At last - some honesty

Post #74,532 by dmarker 1/14/03 8:28:32 PM 1/14/03 8:42:19 PM Reply	At last - some honesty Half of the abuse in this forum (if not a lot more) can really be attributed to the difference between: immature thinking and denialists vs the look at the facts people having a go at them. What I call immature thinking is not a criticism, just my way of saying that some people here appear to have not had enough life experience to know the diference between ideals vs cold hard reality. A classic example of this immature myopia is anyone here who argues that US attacking Iraq is mostly about protecting USA vs mostly about US protecting its economy (by garnering control of either the 3rd largest oil reserves or potentially the largest oil reserves, that have the cheapest extraction price & easiest access, in the world. For you to come forward and state quite openly, that this is about you and your fellows, grabbing what you can for yourselves, is bing bluntly honest but this POV stings those who don't want to admit it or see it that way. They would rather believe they are doing the world a favour by going to war. In the past I have stated many times that my difficulty with Bush & the republicans is that they are barefacedly lying to their on people in carrying out this deed & my problem is I find it hard to stand back and pretend they are not lying. One of the big accusations Americans & Brits etc: used to throw at Germans after WW2 was "you must have known what was going on" - the Germans would say "but we didn't know - we believed our leaders" (in relation to racial cleansing, jewish pogroms & camps, invading poland, etc: etc:). Well lies are being told today & if there are those among us who decide they will go with the flow & not buck the trend, that is their choice, just be prepared at a future date to look your grandchildren in the eye & tell them you either did know what was going on but let it happen without question or that you didn't because you believed what you were told. Of course most of us would love money for jam, cheap oil, cheap cars, cheap houses, cheap clothes, the easy life. But when that comes at the expense of other humans well being one has a moral dilema to deal with. I am interpreting your position as "STFU - most of us know what this really about - you would do it too if in similar position - just don't try to stop us !!!" - am happy for you to correct this. At least it is being honest. Cheers Doug Edited by dmarker Jan. 14, 2003, 08:42:19 PM EST At last - some honesty Half of the abuse in this forum (if not a lot more) can really be attributed to the difference between: immature thinking and denialists vs the look at the facts people having a go at them. What I call immature thinking is not a criticism, just my way of saying that some people here appear to have not had enough life experience to know the diference between ideals vs cold hard reality. A classic example of this immature myopia is anyone here who argues that US attacking Iraq is mostly about protecting USA vs mostly about US protecting its economy (by garnering control of either the 3rd largest oil reserves or potentially the largest oil reserves, that have the cheapest extraction price & easiest access, in the world. For you to come forward and state quite openly, that this is about you and your fellows, grabbing what you can for yourselves, is bing bluntly honest but this POV stings those who don't want to admit it or see it that way. They would rather believe they are doing the world a favour by going to war. In the past I have stated many times that my difficulty with Bush & the republicans is that they are barefacedly lying to their on people in carrying out this deed & my problem is I find it hard to stand back and pretend they are not lying. One of the big accusations Americans & Brits etc: used to throw at Germans after WW2 was "you must have known what was going on" - the Germans would say "but we didn't know - we believed our leaders" (in relation to racial cleansing, jewish pogroms & camps, invading poland, etc: etc:). Well lies are being told today & if there are those among us who decide they will go with the flow & not buck the trend, that is their choice, just be prepared at a future date to look your grandchildren in the eye & tell them you either did know what was going on but let it happen without question or that you didn't because you believed what you were told. Of course most of us would love money for jam, cheap oil, cheap cars, cheap houses, cheap clothes, the easy life. But when that comes at the expense of other humans well being one has a moral dilema to deal with. I am interpreting your position as STFU - most of us know what this really about - just don't try to stop us !!! - am happy for you to correct this. At least itis being honest. Cheers Doug Collapse All History
Post #74,603 by screamer 1/15/03 11:24:00 AM Reply	It's absolutely much deeper than even that... On the one hand, the post above was my interpretation of the current macro view of American culture and political debate. I, of course, cannot speak for all Americans but I believe that it accurately represents a general trend that I have seen over the past 20 years (drastically accelerated after the fall of the Soviet Union). Of course, the rhetoric is filled with euphemisms, etc... As per my own personal view, this is my way of protesting. To state what I believe is the prevailing "truth" underlying the euphemisms about "just wars" and all the other bullshit. And who really knows, maybe the rhetoric is correct. If the US can stabilize the oil markets, it could lead to greater prosperity for a larger number of people. The people in Afghanistan (who were not injured or killed) are most probably better off because of our presence, most probably moving forward. After oppressive Soviet and then Taliban regiemes, our (US) biggest threat posed is that we will leave them alone... Whether "the world" understands it our not, we are moving to a globalization (driven by technology and economics) and cultures will be enhanced and cultures will be destroyed. I honestly believe that W. does get it... I would even go as far as to predict that English (via the defacto standard of the Internet) will be spoken by most people on the planet by the end of this century. I view this as generally a good thing, in that it will allow people the opportunity to work with eachother more easily if we can tear down some of the cognitive dissonance created by ethos, mythos and plain old differing language. To me, to say I dislike a person because he is French or Australian, is just as demeaning as saying I dislike a person because he is black or because he is an orthodox jew... It should be irrelevant, "do you dislike the man?". It isn't, but should be. I suggest that you give a look (or another look) at Toffler's The Third Wave or War and Antiwar to give you a better idea at what I basically believe is happening in the macro sense. To get even more to the heart of this particular matter, even though I do not agree with the rhetoric out of Washington, the UN or the "world", I think that Iraq will indeed be better off after this is finished, if we follow the pattern of the past (see Germany, Japan, Afghanistan). Note, the wars that we lost... Vietnam and Korea... Those areas are certainly better off... At differing times during the Roman and British empires you were better off being with them as well. So as for being a "good Nazi", maybe. Only time can determine that. My own conscience is somewhat appeased by my conviction that this current administration is generally doing the right thing (if not for their stated reasons). The key is that, America must follow through with reconstruction and demanding democracy in the places that it engineers. As long America remains a democracy, there is hope and this how I differentiate the "tyranny of America" versus the "tyranny of a third world dictator". There is no hope in a third world dictatorship in the global economy/world. Just a few thoughts, Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever
Post #74,610 by dmarker 1/15/03 12:21:38 PM Reply	Re: It's absolutely much deeper than even that... I a general sense, what you say seems ok. I would question the reality of US investing to clean up or improve the lot of affected people (such as Iraqis after an invasion). We need to recall that Iraq to some degree was suffering because of US led sanctions designed to cripple the country & bring down Saddam. Vietnam suffered 20 years of a kind of 'revenge' and is behind most other parts of Asia in prosperity & recovery, which is only now occuring because US would rather mute any Vietnamese hostility at a time when the country can be used as a hedge against their tradidtional foes the Chinese. An insight into your perspective is Nth Korea. Here in Asia there is a strong perception that NK was finally coming out of its isolation & if handled carefully would eventually have to become a responsible citizen. The view is that NK got forced into a corner by US and decided to get beligerent as its only available lever to get aid. I am no supporter of NK or its 'dear' leader - he to me is worse than Saddam by any long shot. But, I am begining to believe that NK may be justifiably putting the torch on the US as the instigator of new tensions in the region (I never believed I would find my self saying anything in support of NK). Part of our problem in looking at NK is that many of us find it easier to think, "just NUKE the bast**** and get it over with" but anyone one with half a brain knows hoe pathetic a strategy that would be today & the devestating effect it would have on neibouring countries & world stability. Again, the prevailing (and seemingly correct) view here in Asia is that US is actually handling NK properly now that it has reacted to past approach, but that the Iraq folly is the transparent deed that is feared will create more anti-US sentiment than is needed or healthy. Anyway, in support of your gneral views, I am one of those who believed that Reagan's tough stance against Soviets, had more to do with the falling of the berlin wall & the collapse of the Soviet empire than any other single deed such as their Afghanistan adventure. It is not lost on me that the same advisers who engineered Reagan's policies are the same people who were behind Bush 1 & now W. But, I never felt that the first 2 had to lie as much as W is doing (specificalyy re Iraq & why it will be invaded). Cheers Doug
Post #74,623 by screamer 1/15/03 1:26:52 PM Reply	We made quite a mess all over the world... Us and the British et al and (by proxie) the Russians. The end of WWII and treaties signed then and the ensuing cold war brought about many strange bedfellows... You brought up the harm we did to Iraq, but, how about all the neat military shit we gave them when they were our friends and fighting the barbaric Iranians? I would go even as far as to say, we helped create Sadam. Sadam's Iraq is perhaps the most progressive of the Arab countries (based on the general quality of life measures - roads, radios per 1000, etc.) Even more interesting than NK in Asian politics (to me) is the continuing "alliance" with Pakistan against (?) India (the second most populace country in the world). By the by, I think the US has already hinted at playing the South Korea/Japan/Hong Kong card with the Chinese (arming them with nukes that is). And, in a military sense, it would be the correct move on the US part, putting really only Hawaii (and unfortunately Australia and the whole of Asia) in immediate danger. To wit, if you check out [link\|http://www.prb.org//Content/ContentGroups/Datasheets/wpds2002/2002_World_Population_Data_Sheet.htm\|http://www.prb.org//...on_Data_Sheet.htm] and download the PDF, it will gives a summary of current population (2002) and projected to 2050. Notice who is no 1, 4, 5, and 8 in 2050. Do you think this in any way effects political planners in any countries? I honestly believe it might, but I'm just curious... To answer one more anticipated question, yes, there are some really smart sons of bitches that "think that way" in the intelligence agencies and gov think tanks. And yes, I believe that the British (by proxie) Empire is continued through US foreign policy. I've even noticed that foreign press is even no longer including the words "and Great Britian" after "the US"... It does kind of negate the expression "the US and UK, unilaterally decided etc." Random thoughts... Screamer Living is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you see, it's getting hard to be someone but it all works out it doesn't matter much to me J. Lennon - Strawberry Fields Forever

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