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New Stimulus? Dividends?
Can someone explain to me how making dividends the tax-advantaged thing to do with corporate profits is going to do anything but degrade the private sector infrastructure and increase unemployment?

I'm not talking about the wisdom of a tax cut in the current economy, that's an entirely different issue. The question of double taxation is neutral here too - capital gains and dividends both come from taxed profits.

Reducing the overall taxes on stock proceeds does make stocks more desirable, and should pump more money into the market. Assuming there are profits. But this seems like a very bad way to do that.

OK, let's say I have a company and I manage to make a profit this quarter. I've got two things I can do with it that benefit the stockholders. I can give it to them as dividends, or I can reinvest it to grow the company and give them capital gains.

The proposed change means that my stockholders are going to be happier with the dividends - capital gains are still taxable. So, in order to compete, I'll move money from the capital gains side to the dividend side. That means less money to reinvest in the company - less employees hired or retained, less equipment, less supplies. Less growth. But I answer to the stockholders, and capital gains cost them taxes while dividends don't.

Granted, lots of that dividend money will get reinvested in either my company or another, which is good for the economy. But ALL the profits I reinvest get reinvested, which is better. And since I have profits to play with, I'm presumably a good company, reinvesting in my company should, unless I've hit a growth limit, be a better-than-usual investment, both in terms of my own ROI and the health of the economy.

I can see how a capital gains tax cut can encourage growth, but this makes no sense to me in the current economy. If the problem were exessive growth of large, profitable corporations inhibiting investment in new companies, yeah, this would help. I don't think that's the problem now.

Disclosure: All my stocks are in an IRA. Neither a capital gains nor a dividend tax cut will do me any direct good.

----
Whatever
New Re: Stimulus? Dividends?
Granted, lots of that dividend money will get reinvested in either my company or another, which is good for the economy. But ALL the profits I reinvest get reinvested, which is better. And since I have profits to play with, I'm presumably a good company, reinvesting in my company should, unless I've hit a growth limit, be a better-than-usual investment, both in terms of my own ROI and the health of the economy.

The problem is with the second part of your theory there. In fact, a good percentage of the reinvestment money is spent on mergers, acquisitions, finance games and various forms of legal bribery. These things all help to increase short term profitablity, or at least the short term stock price. But they don't tend to generate jobs or otherwise help the economy.

And that is assuming the executive don't convert the money into perks and then use various stuctured finance schemes to cover their stock inflating actions.

In the long run, money from dividends has a couple of advantages that help the economy. First, it is real money, so it's harder for a company to use trickery to provide dividends. Second, they encourage a more rational and long term view of the value of a company. Rather then value a company on how they expect the stock to do in the next few months, they will be directed towards picking one that can show consistant real profits. Third, because they enourage people to hold onto stocks for longer, they encourage the companies to invest in things with longer term payoff, such as research and infrastructure.

However, over the short term, I don't think the dividend tax elimination is going to help. It's to long term of a benifit to help the economy over the next few years, particularly since there is a lot of behavior to be unlearned by investors.

Jay
New Well, take Microsoft. (Please! :))
They are sitting on roughly $40B. Why? Well, if they gave out dividends Bill would have sizable income taxes to pay. So they've been investing that money in a variety of mostly losing propositions and otherwise just hanging on to it with low return.

If dividends become tax free, Microsoft will start paying them. Bill will take his portion and invest in whatever he likes w/o worrying about what other MSFT stockholders might do. The other stockholders can do whatever they like as well. They can use the money to buy digital VCRs and Plasma Displays or use it to buy more Microsoft stock. Money is free to move and will move in millions of directions. That's different from what happens when it is "locked-up" in Microsoft in essentially money-market accounts.
Alex

"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session."\t-- Mark Twain
New What do dividends have to do with company profitability?
Dividends are paid to people that already own stock. If more people buy stock it is likely that they will buy it from other people not companies. Unless companies have been using large amount of cash reserves to buy back stock(some have) not taxing dividends has dick to do with corporate profits and reinvestment.
I say if I have to pay my graduated income tax with 100% of my income you should pay your 7.5 payroll tax to 100% of your income. (it all goes to the general fund anyway and is eagerly awaited by tax and spenders) Fair taxation on all income.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New I have been thinking about this one
And it looks to me like a pretty straightforward wealth transfer. That coincidentally sets up another wealth grab later.

First it is important to understand what the issue is with how things work now.

Shareholders own the company. The usual assumption is that the company will make money, and grow, and eventually transfer money to the owners to recoup the owners their initial investment and work. Stock makes it easy for new would-be owners to get involved, and old ones to leave whenever they want. But when you buy and sell stock you are buying and selling part-ownership.

Of interest here is the question of how companies transfer money back to owners. There are two main choices. The traditional answer is dividends. The company gives each owner an amount of money proportional to how much they own. Since this is a straight transfer of wealth from one place to the other, you would expect that the value of the company falls by the same amount that is paid out. And this is exactly what happens. The second common answer is stock buybacks. Here the company buys out any owners who don't want to own the stock any more. Again this is a straight wealth transfer, the only difference is the mechanism and how the money is divided among owners. Oh, and taxes. But barring taxes and transaction costs, your result should be the same with reinvesting dividends and holding still in a stock buyback. Or accepting dividends and selling the right fraction of your stock in a stock buyback.

Now what is the deal with taxes? Quite simple. Every time a financial transaction happens, the government likes to be involved. If you get a dividend, that represents income from your investment, therefore it is your income, therefore they want in your income tax. If you sell something for a profit, they call that capital gains but are nice to you, they give you a slight break in the capital gains tax. (We are capitalists, we like encouraging capitalism.) Therefore there is a tax advantage to taking profit as capital gains and not income. So more and more companies have stopped handing out dividends. Of course lots of people like getting dividends, they understand dividends, gives them warm fuzzies. Hence it is manifestly "unfair" to discourage dividends.

This leads to Bush's proposal to eliminate the tax on dividends. Besides which, the money has theoretically already been taxed in corporate taxes. (But show me the corporation which in practice doesn't manage to convince the IRS that it shouldn't pay taxes. Even Microsoft [link|http://www.ecommercetimes.com/perl/story/4526.html|manages to lose money]!) This makes it cheaper to transfer wealth back in the form of dividends than stock buybacks. Furthermore if you own stock it manages to increase the real value of the future returns on that stock by the amount of tax you won't pay. With typical rates you would have paid 1/5 in taxes, so it is now worth 5/4 of what it was. And if it is worth 25% more to you, then you should be willing to pay more as well, so the stock price goes up. Given a current market cap of about $10 trillion or so for equities, that is a huge amount of money that gets produced. Wonderful!

Or is it?

As many have noticed, if your stock ownership is through things like IRAs, then you don't care. Modulo minor tranaction costs, it doesn't matter whether you get value back in dividends or buybacks. You pay no tax until you take it out, and then you pay income tax on what you made, no matter how it was made. So some people directly realize value, some do not. Of course if you don't directly realize value, you get some value from people who now want your stock more than you do. Of course that leaves the price somewhere between where it is worthwhile for you, and where it is good for them. Which means that you are less well off investing in stock, and they are better.

So who wins? Well it is people who are in a position to make a large fraction of their income in stocks. Of course you always see examples given with people whose total income is, say, $30K or so. However we all know that is not representative of this class of people, don't we?

And who doesn't win? People who don't own stocks, and to a lesser extent people whose main stock ownership is in retirement accounts. Most of us in other words.

So the tax burden shifts from wealthy to poor. Again. Further.

Oh, and this one gets even more abusible. After all all that someone gains is the ability to not pay taxes on dividends, they still pay capital gains of all kinds? Well unless their accountants are worse at accounting than I am, that isn't so. They won't have to pay either dividends or capital gains taxes!

How does this trick work? Quite easily. Remember what I said about companies that pay dividends? When the company pays dividends you get dividends and a corresponding loss of stock value? So what happens if you buy a stock just before it pays dividends, then sell it right after? Right! You get money tax free. And you also get a corresponding capital gains loss. The loss can now be used to offset some other capital gain. Wash, rinse, and repeat as needed to offset any inconvenient capital gain that you might have taken...

Nice trick. If you have enough money to make proper use of it. Which Bush does of course. As do many of his best friends. And armies of wannabes who have swallowed "trickle-down economics" hook line and stinker.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build
communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New With _very_ light editing: submit for publication

This is publication quality, Ben. Letters to the editor at the very\r\nleast, Op-Ed preferably.

\r\n\r\n

The only edits I see necessary are to remove some local\r\nreference/continuity to zIWE. I'd encourage you to shop this around and\r\nget it in print.

\r\n\r\n

There are a number of people here who manage inspired writing from\r\ntime to time, and I'd like to see some of the sensible words get broader\r\nplay.

\r\n\r\n

I'll also note slight disagreement on your assessment of the 401(k)\r\nimpact. As a 401(k) holder, largely of index funds, and utilizing DRIPs\r\nwhere possible, I still prefer to see dividends for their role\r\nas a check on financial reporting practices. Recent evidence suggests\r\nthat same might stand a slight adjustment. The impact on firms who\r\nencourage reinvestment would be minimal, the feedback (by investing or\r\nspending dividend payments elsewhere) on those who fail to inspire\r\nconfidence would be invaluable market feedback.

\r\n
--\r\n
Karsten M. Self [link|mailto:kmself@ix.netcom.com|kmself@ix.netcom.com]\r\n
[link|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/|http://kmself.home.netcom.com/]\r\n
What part of "gestalt" don't you understand?\r\n
[link|http://twiki.iwethey.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/|TWikIWETHEY] -- an experiment in collective intelligence. Stupidity. Whatever.\r\n
\r\n
   Keep software free.     Oppose the CBDTPA.     Kill S.2048 dead.\r\n[link|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html|http://www.eff.org/alerts/20020322_eff_cbdtpa_alert.html]\r\n
New Thanks for the compliment
But I think that this brain-dump would need more thought and editing before publication makes sense.

Ben
"good ideas and bad code build
communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New Doesn't the "ex-dividend" address this particular point?
Ben writes:

How does this trick work? Quite easily. Remember what I said about companies that pay dividends? When the company pays dividends you get dividends and a corresponding loss of stock value? So what happens if you buy a stock just before it pays dividends, then sell it right after? Right! You get money tax free. And you also get a corresponding capital gains loss. The loss can now be used to offset some other capital gain. Wash, rinse, and repeat as needed to offset any inconvenient capital gain that you might have taken...

Emphasis added.

As I understand things, e.g. from [link|http://www.ex-dividend.com/exexample.html|here] you only get the dividend if you're the owner of record before the "ex-dividend" date - on the order of 30 days before the dividend is paid. Since you don't get the dividend, the ex-dividend stock price is less. If you sell your stock during the ex-dividend period, you owe the new owner the dividend.

Since there's the risk of the stock value changing during the 30+ day ex-dividend period, it doesn't seem to be a way to "get money tax free".

It seems as if your arrangement depends on being able to rapidly turn-over the stock. How does the ex-dividend restrictions fit into your argument?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Scott.
New Nope
As long as you buy before the ex-dividend, and sell afterwards, you get the dividend and take the corresponding loss. Even if you held the stock only for an afternoon and morning.

Because of bookkeeping getting confused, the dividend might get sent to someone else who then sends it to you, but you are the one who gets the dividend and takes the capital loss.

Cheers,
Ben
"good ideas and bad code build
communities, the other three combinations do not"
- [link|http://archives.real-time.com/pipermail/cocoon-devel/2000-October/003023.html|Stefano Mazzocchi]
New A twist:
OK, I didn't read the whole proposal.

It appears that there is an odd proviso: the tax-free dividends must be paid out of taxed profits. If the corporation manages to shelter all the profits and pay no tax, the shareholders have to pay tax on the dividends.

Hmmmmmm......
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Whatever
     Stimulus? Dividends? - (mhuber) - (9)
         Re: Stimulus? Dividends? - (JayMehaffey)
         Well, take Microsoft. (Please! :)) - (a6l6e6x)
         What do dividends have to do with company profitability? - (boxley)
         I have been thinking about this one - (ben_tilly) - (4)
             With _very_ light editing: submit for publication - (kmself) - (1)
                 Thanks for the compliment - (ben_tilly)
             Doesn't the "ex-dividend" address this particular point? - (Another Scott) - (1)
                 Nope - (ben_tilly)
         A twist: - (mhuber)

I am LRPD, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
47 ms