Actually, there are ways around their rigid rules

Post #73,067 by tonytib 1/6/03 9:21:05 PM Reply	Actually, there are ways around their rigid rules Based on talking with people who've done automation work in auto plants, the union rules can be a real pain. However....if you can get union supervisor to like you, he may "look the other way" while you do action X (flip a breaker, etc). But, that's not a good way to run a business (relying on ignoring stupid rules to get work done in a timely manner). Then again, neither is forcing unpaid overtime on hourly workers (see Walmart in Oregon). So there is a very valid place for unions. Also, I don't there should be any inherent link between unions and rigid work practices -- that's just the way our current dinosaur unions developed. Tony
Post #73,077 by orion 1/6/03 9:41:39 PM Reply	How about we split the difference and pass laws that make it unlawfull for a company to: Force unpaid overtime on employees. Overwork an employee just to try and make them quit. Fire an employee without due cause (Missouri is an At-will state, they can fire us for no reason at all). Fire an employee for following orders of their supervisor. Fire an employee because they have a medical illness and the company does not know how to manage them any more. (This is what I believe happened to me twice) Force an employee to do things not in their job description, or else they get fired. I could think up more, but [link\|http://www.dilbert.com\|The Dilbert Comic Strip] has documented the many many abuses put on IT workers and Engineers. **Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesht will do! ;)***
Post #73,127 by hnick 1/7/03 7:29:51 AM Reply	Nice thought but unfeasible Salaried overtime has been around so long it would be grandfathered into any new legislation. Overwork is kinda subjective... it's not overwork, it's "stretch goals". At-Will states got that way because corporations bought the proper politicians. If they are honest politicians, they will stay bought, so you would have to buy a suitable crowd to reverse the legislation. Some of the 'honest' ones are probably still in office. This could be difficult. If the original pols were not honest, you have a bidding war against corporate interests. For the corporations, politicians are cheaper in the long run than workers, and somewhat more versatile in that you can use them for a range of things. It would be a terrible precident for management if management was to have to take responsiblilty for their gaffes. Of course they will pass down blame. Work outside of a job description? I can't speak for anybody else, but I LIKE new things. I LIKE today to be different from yesterday. For what they pay me, they are not about to hand me a broom, but if they did, it would be a break from the constant pressure, and I could wander about with my broom picking up on what everybody else is getting into. Hmmm.... doesn't sound too bad for a short term break. And the place is largely carpeted... Never mind... just daydreaming... Sorry, but I don't think andybody else, supernatural or otherwise, is going to come by and make your life wonderful. Your odds are better on the lottery. You have to do it pretty much yourself.
Post #73,346 by orion 1/8/03 7:03:25 AM Reply	Re: Nice thought but unfeasible Equal pay for equal work. If I am forced to work 80 hours a week, I except to at least get a bonus check for it. Not nothing but paid for 40 hours. If I get 39 hours a week due to a sickness or something, I catch unholy heck for it, despite me making the extra hour or hours up the next week for it. Yet they don't even bat an eyebrow at the 50, 60, and 80 hours I do on other weeks for them. Strech goals? More like mismanagement over how long a job should actually take to get done. Managers are always underbidding the hours, and then forcing us to work extra hours to make up for their mistakes. So if they say something should take two weeks to get done, and then they see that it really should have been two months, they force us to work 60 to 80 hours a week in two weeks to get it done. The Pyramid Builders in Egypt had a system like this with whips, you know. At-Will which only goes to show that we have the best government that money can buy. Management always passed down the blame, I've yet to see any manager take responsibility for their own blunders. Better to blame a peon or two and fire them, than admit to making a mistake. IT Workers have become whipping boys/girls. I bet you like doing Data Entry, or moving computers around, or doing QA work, or being forced to do anything but your own job, and then get told that your own job is not getting done, right? That is a trick they use to bring down your productivity in your job description to make it look like you aren't being productive. I am not talking about sweeping floors or scrubbing toliets, but don't give management any ideas. I am not talking about a wonderful life, just a decent one where I get the respect I should get, and I get a job were I am treated fairly. Not those IT Jobs where management considers IT workers to be "A dime a dozen" and can fire many on the spot for no reason at all. **Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesht will do! ;)***
Post #73,350 by hnick 1/8/03 7:45:22 AM Reply	Oh good, you mostly agree with me >>Equal pay for equal work<< Long hours happen. If it happens a lot without compensation, vote with your feet. >>Strech goals<< Yup. Thats the way it works. See above solution. >>At-Will which only goes to show that we have the best government that money can buy.<< I knew that you understood the American way. >>Management always passed down the blame<< Yup. And union manangement is going to change corporate management? Union managment IS corporate management. >>I bet you like doing ....<< At the end of the day, my job is to get things designed and built. If I have to build a custom environement, that's just part of the job. I've had to do data entry, QA, build machines, move machines, run cables, install power lines because we didn't have 220V lines in the lab, build custom utilites so the QA people can do their jobs, and a lot more. Do what you have to do to get the job done. If it becomes onerous, vote with your feet. >>I am not talking about a wonderful life, just a decent one where I get the respect I should get, and I get a job were I am treated fairly.<< Respect is not something you automatically get. It is earned. Fair treatment is a matter of perspective. If you are more valuable to your employer, the employer would consider it more fair to take care of you in favor of somebody who is immediately replaceable. The employee is not likely to look at things like that. Like I said, perspective and the feet thing. Hugh
Post #73,355 by orion 1/8/03 9:29:35 AM Reply	Vote with your feet? Not in this current job market you cannot vote with your feet unless you still live at home with your folks and can mooch off of them until you find another job. Which may take years, I know of friends who did that and now wish they didn't. One of them has a record three years without a job. Yo see, you shouldn't have to vote with your feet if you had representation or respect. **Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesht will do! ;)***
Post #73,602 by hnick 1/9/03 7:17:20 AM Reply	Nothing is intolerable until you have a choice. If you literally have no choices, do the best you can with what you have. If you have a choice, vote with feet. Altruists should be viewed with suspicion. Nobody is going to represent you out of the goodness of thier hearts. They are going to want a slice out of an already shrinking pie. This would not likely bode well for you. Nobody is going to give you respect. You have to earn it. Nobody guaranteed you a wonderful life. Just life, since you got it anyway. The rest is up to you. Good luck, Hugh
Post #73,625 by orion 1/9/03 9:23:59 AM Reply	Re: Nothing is intolerable until you have a choice. Trust me, I worked at that stinkhole called a law firm for four and a half years and helped invent a practice area system and did a docket calendar all by myself, etc which saved the company millions. Yet I still did not get one iota of respect for it. I earned bloody repsect, but I didn't get any. Why? Because programmers are "a dime a dozen" these days and easily replaceable once their pay raises have them earning too much and they can be replaced with someone who earns less. How often I wanted to leave, I was looking, but I could never find anything. I was always second or third best for a job placement, but they only wanted one person. In other words I had no choice, no respect, no chance of survival, I got fired and replaced with someone who works cheaper and gives cheaper quality products than I did. The law firm is still trying to get .NET and Office 2000 working since 2001. Does that tell you anything? My reconmendation was to wait until Service Pack 3 to .NET before deploying it, but management wanted to deploy the beta! So now I just sit at home and occasionally talk to an ex-coworker who still works there and find out their progress, which is slower than any other progress they have done. Microsoft has them sold on .Net; however, they cannot seem to convert over to it, or get it to do what they want it to do. **Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesht will do! ;)***
Post #73,097 by Ashton 1/6/03 10:24:33 PM Reply	Yes, the word Union blinds to - the possibilities in '02+

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