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New Frog in the pot; works repeatedly via ego blindness
IMnsHO, most folk under (50?), unless they grew up in a working household; history a frequent topic at a real dinner table - augmented by the lore of such a parental one (or pair) of real workers:

Are blowing smoke and, as you suggest - imagine selves to be 1337, more Boolean than thou. Hah..

In saner though reactionary times, when I busted ass over a loong summer at the world's largest white pine mill (Lewiston ID) and other jobs varying from primer mfg to jr. chemist yada, over several years -- I saw little in the way of the absurd make-work examples in this thread. We two (myself and an older rilly wiry guy) who loaded the "green end" of the dryer, on one gig - had a 5 minute break for water.. Water.. WATER! at the 2-hour mark, watched second-by-second towards its approach.

There always are.. the Welfare Queen slogans, such as led to Clinton out-brutalizing even Gingrich, in the sellout of 'welfare' as even a concept. Really pissed those Repos, to be out-scrimped on the lowest 20% of non-donors-to campaigns.

And my experience was the expected "condition", where the Union was the obvious and essential counterbalance of the endless war for personal greed -VS- inevitably, the suits - then not so obscenely voracious as in the Age of Billy. I can't recall the provision (part-time?) via which I needn't join that Union: but I saw employees giving bloody excellent value/time.

IT, 5? x? years ago may have seemed to be 'hi-tech' to employers - bizness droids who can't do Ohm's Law, so they picked basketweaving. They sorta had to accede to that which they didn't understand and couldn't. Then.

Now they have learned little more, except via pure SHIT like IW, pandering to and lauding their ignorance and determination not ever to rectify it. But MBAs recognize the concept, "commodification; see 'workers' now solely as YAN 'expense' to be reduced in size", and they recognize supply/demand -- as if that formula were Life. (Which IMO is where we really Are Fucked as a kultur. As thou sayest.)

So the Class Struggle remains, however much one prefers the comfortable euphemism. The IT 'workers' who imagine elite status are the lawful prey of (esp. the younger) MBA ladder droids. This as the little cubicles get moved closer together and the Hamster-bottle no longer is filled with free Dew; and as IT becomes Int'l. Commodity, along with all the other office interchangeable worker-machines. More and more people are working As or as-if Temps, with 0 sense of permanence or of being valued in any way. Do I exaggerate?

Yeah, no doubt many denizens here have a different relationship. So far. In early '03. Before Depression replaces 'Recession' on the nightly talking-head show. As the gap between Top 20% and Bottom grows daily.

Shit.. I wonder how many IT folk have *ever* really WATCHED Modern Times, the utter Genius that was Charles Chaplin -- then sat in silence for many minutes, with no e- distractions and -- pondered [?]

I wish you all extreme Good Luck - but hope also that you are investigating the concept, '*diversify your abilities', before the rush. (Unless Dad owns the Co.)

* wider than 'IT' ??


Ashton

PS - Union? It's just a word. Create. Call it a Guild, Professional Management Consortium, Coop Legislative PAC, Self-Defense Lobby, CIEIO-Defense Coalition. LifeSupport - whatever..
(Ladies and) Gentlemen, we must all hang together or, assuredly we shall all hang. Separately.
Some Brit seadog
New Exactly
I know a number of working and retired pipe fitters through my best buddy here. Not a one of them is a shirker. They are "solid citizens".
-drl
New 'Shirking' not my point
It's the Union, doing it's job (securing jobs and benefits for workers) without real regard for the business itself that's the problem.

And there ARE problems.

Imric's Tips for Living
  • Paranoia Is a Survival Trait
  • Pessimists are never disappointed - but sometimes, if they are very lucky, they can be pleasantly surprised...
  • Even though everyone is out to get you, it doesn't matter unless you let them win.
Expand Edited by imric Jan. 6, 2003, 11:15:56 AM EST
     H-1B Reform / IT Union - (JayMehaffey) - (80)
         should be IBEW INHO that would handle retirement - (boxley)
         Good point about nervousness of real AFL/CIO motives. - (a6l6e6x)
         Why? Labor is labor. -NT - (deSitter) - (31)
             Why what? - (JayMehaffey) - (30)
                 Better a bad union, than no union at all. - (orion) - (29)
                     imnsho, no union is a good union. -NT - (jbrabeck) - (1)
                         Yup, let's go back to the days before unions. - (imric)
                     Beg to differ. - (hnick) - (6)
                         I did it myself - (orion) - (5)
                             How about? - (gdaustin) - (4)
                                 Yes I agree - (orion) - (3)
                                     Dreamers.... - (gdaustin) - (2)
                                         A question for you - (lincoln) - (1)
                                             Visit this website - (orion)
                     My experiences with the Union - (bluke) - (19)
                         Duplicate post. @#$@#&% computer! -NT - (jbrabeck)
                         Similiar - (jbrabeck)
                         Was it at least all the same union? - (bbronson) - (5)
                             reminds me of the storey between the Raj - (boxley) - (4)
                                 Henry Ford - (tuberculosis) - (3)
                                     Fucking OF COURSE! - (deSitter) - (2)
                                         Prisoners dilema - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                             Nice Exposition of PD - (deSitter)
                         Good examples - (imric) - (10)
                             Sanity at last - but.. - (deSitter) - (9)
                                 Empty? - (imric) - (7)
                                     Re: Empty? - (deSitter) - (6)
                                         Here - (broomberg) - (4)
                                             BAHAHAHA - (deSitter) - (3)
                                                 Frog in the pot; works repeatedly via ego blindness - (Ashton) - (2)
                                                     Exactly - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                         'Shirking' not my point - (imric)
                                         The problem is imagining that Unions - (imric)
                                 At what cost??? - (bluke)
         All it means to me - (orion)
         We beat this to death - (broomberg) - (11)
             So? The issue keeps coming up - (deSitter) - (10)
                 Nahh - (broomberg) - (9)
                     Right! - (deSitter)
                     Uh, I don't get this: - (CRConrad) - (7)
                         Yup - (broomberg) - (6)
                             So you're assuming the second category doesn't need a union? -NT - (CRConrad) - (1)
                                 Yup - (broomberg)
                             Only if - (JayMehaffey) - (1)
                                 But it's appropriate - (broomberg)
                             Yup - (deSitter) - (1)
                                 Try it - (broomberg)
         H1-B Problem Taking Care of Itself - (gdaustin) - (31)
             Mostly cost pressure - (bluke)
             Wrong - (deSitter) - (21)
                 Is that really your dream? - (Arkadiy) - (19)
                     A dream shared - (orion)
                     Re: Is that really your dream? - (deSitter) - (17)
                         Unions kill productivity in many ways - (bluke) - (15)
                             Bad example - (broomberg) - (14)
                                 Duplicate post - ignore -NT - (bluke) - (1)
                                     HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! sorry couldnt help it - (boxley)
                                 Not really ... - (bluke) - (11)
                                     But remember this - (orion)
                                     You have the heart of it. - (static)
                                     Actually, there are ways around their rigid rules - (tonytib) - (8)
                                         How about we split the difference - (orion) - (6)
                                             Nice thought but unfeasible - (hnick) - (5)
                                                 Re: Nice thought but unfeasible - (orion) - (4)
                                                     Oh good, you mostly agree with me - (hnick) - (3)
                                                         Vote with your feet? - (orion) - (2)
                                                             Nothing is intolerable until you have a choice. - (hnick) - (1)
                                                                 Re: Nothing is intolerable until you have a choice. - (orion)
                                         Yes, the word Union blinds to - the possibilities in '02+ -NT - (Ashton)
                         Re: Is that really your dream? - (Arkadiy)
                 But, Greed is good... - (gdaustin)
             I disagree. A compromise needed - (tablizer) - (7)
                 Re: I disagree. A compromise needed - (gdaustin) - (5)
                     And what if they really can do the job ... - (bluke) - (3)
                         One of the major development costs is communication overhead - (ben_tilly) - (2)
                             Believe me I know ... - (bluke) - (1)
                                 Sounds like we are on the same page then - (ben_tilly)
                     Corporate lying, not individuals - (tablizer)
                 Your COBOL vs Java example is flawed - (broomberg)
         interesting note on HB1 my interview is with a HB1 supplier - (boxley)

EGM: Who's that chick Mario is rescuing up there?
Brian: It's Princess Peach.
Kirk: It's a hooker.
Niko: She looks cut in half.
Tim: Oh wow... she's one of those pole dancers.
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