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New American empire
Longish but thoughtful article in today's NY Times:

[link|http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/05/magazine/05EMPIRE.html?pagewanted=all&position=top|http://www.nytimes.c...=all&position=top]

As the United States faces this moment of truth, John Quincy Adams's warning of 1821 remains stark and pertinent: if America were tempted to ''become the dictatress of the world, she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit.'' What empires lavish abroad, they cannot spend on good republican government at home: on hospitals or roads or schools. A distended military budget only aggravates America's continuing failure to keep its egalitarian promise to itself. And these are not the only costs of empire. Detaining two American citizens without charge or access to counsel in military brigs, maintaining illegal combatants on a foreign island in a legal limbo, keeping lawful aliens under permanent surveillance while deporting others after secret hearings: these are not the actions of a republic that lives by the rule of law but of an imperial power reluctant to trust its own liberties. Such actions may still be a long way short of Roosevelt's internment of the Japanese, but that may mean only that the worst -- following, say, another large attack on United States citizens that produces mass casualties -- is yet to come.

and

After 1991 and the collapse of the Soviet empire, American presidents thought they could have imperial domination on the cheap, ruling the world without putting in place any new imperial architecture -- new military alliances, new legal institutions, new international development organisms -- for a postcolonial, post-Soviet world.

The full story is worth a look.

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New britain, italy, greece, turkey is the America of the future?
When empires employ mercenaries to fight the foreign wars, that is the beginning of the end when citizens no longer are willing to shed their own blood in defence of the homeland.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Re: britain, italy, greece, turkey is the America of the fut
"Defence?"

If I conducted home security the way this country has conducted its "defense" these latter decades, then I would routinely break into my neighbors' homes and thrash the crap out of them* just so they wouldn't get any ideas about making free with my goods and chattel.

*(This is not to say that several of my neighbors, or at least the neighborhood itself, might not benefit from a sound thrashing of them, but that's another forum altogether.)

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New sometimes but most of the time you would hire it done
how many wars by proxy did the US and USSR have? Mercenaries defending the farflung reaches of the western empire.
thanx,
bill
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New Get the full book...
...from Amazon-dot-com: [link|http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/034540565X/|American Empire: Blood and Iron], by Harry Turtledove.

:-)


   [link|mailto:MyUserId@MyISP.CountryCode|Christian R. Conrad]
(I live in Finland, and my e-mail in-box is at the Saunalahti company.)
Your lies are of Microsoftian Scale and boring to boot. Your 'depression' may be the closest you ever come to recognizing truth: you have no 'inferiority complex', you are inferior - and something inside you recognizes this. - [link|http://z.iwethey.org/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71575|Ashton Brown]
New He's making a fundamental mistake.
That the US has the best government for everyone. We think it is best because most of us were raised in it. Even other democracies see problems in our practices.

You cannot GIVE freedom to a person.

You cannot bestow democracy on a nation.

Sept. 11 rubbed in the lesson that global power is still measured by military capability. The Europeans discovered that they lacked the military instruments to be taken seriously and that their erstwhile defenders, the Americans, regarded them, in a moment of crisis, with suspicious contempt.
Eventually, all "power" derives from the ability to destroy. The military is the best understood and most easily deployed aspect of destruction.

Nation-building seeks to reconcile imperial power and local self-determination through the medium of an exit strategy. This is imperialism in a hurry: to spend money, to get results, to turn the place back to the locals and get out. But it is similar to the old imperialism in the sense that real power in these zones -- Kosovo, Bosnia, Afghanistan and soon, perhaps, Iraq -- will remain in Washington.
Because we aren't building nations. We want PUPPETS.

We don't want allies. We want vassals.

They cannot rebuild each failed state or appease each anti-American hatred, and the more they try, the more they expose themselves to the overreach that eventually undermined the classical empires of old.
The world is not safe. It will never be safe. People will not like you. People might even hate you.

As the North Korean case shows, America needs to share the policing of nonproliferation and other threats with these powers, and if it tries, as the current National Security Strategy suggests, to prevent the emergence of any competitor to American global dominance, it risks everything that Gibbon predicted: overextension followed by defeat.
We will bankrupt our nation.

Radical Islam would never have succeeded in winning adherents if the Muslim countries that won independence from the European empires had been able to convert dreams of self-determination into the reality of competent, rule-abiding states.
We did not WANT them to be. We wanted them dependant upon our good-will and our weapons. Without our good-will, they would not get our weapons and their neighbors (using our weapons) would invade them.

Its solution -- to create democracy in Iraq, then hopefully roll out the same happy experiment throughout the Middle East -- is both noble and dangerous: noble because, if successful, it will finally give these peoples the self-determination they vainly fought for against the empires of the past; dangerous because, if it fails, there will be nobody left to blame but the Americans.
We are NOT going to create a democracy in Iraq. We want a PUPPET. We'd even take another Saddam IF the other Saddam would side with the US. Hell, we'd even give him weapons then.

Just as we did with this Saddam when he was fighting against Iran.

The reason is simply that, however right these principles may be, the political form in which they are realized -- the nationalist nation-building project -- so often delivers liberated colonies straight to tyranny, as in the case of Baath Party rule in Iraq, or straight to chaos, as in Bosnia or Afghanistan.
Again, because you cannot GIVE freedom to someone.

For every nationalist struggle that succeeds in giving its people self-determination and dignity, there are more that deliver their people only up to slaughter or terror or both.
Now, trace back the origin of the weapons used by those doing the slaughter, imposing the terror and so forth.

The case for empire is that it has become, in a place like Iraq, the last hope for democracy and stability alike.
Wrong. If we worked with the OTHER nations there and helped bring THEM to democracy, Iraq would, eventually, convert.

Every nation in the mid-east KNOWS that the US is lieing about freedom and democracy. If it ever came down to it, the US would invade and TAKE the oil rather than deal with a self-deterministic nation.
New Not Adams. He was right on.
As I said, "real" Americans are horrified by the prospect of imperialism. (Remember how a banana republic shouting "Yankee imperialism!" once was a cliche?)

-drl
New Good article! Thanks for link.
Right on about Palestinian/Israeli conflict.
Alex

"No man's life, liberty, or property are safe while the legislature is in session."\t-- Mark Twain
New If anyone in Congress actually reads NYT,
the ball is in their court - unless the corruption is irreversible. Even as of yesterday's bellicose 'warnings' in typ Bush-speak, the 'loyal opposition' has no voice within Congress, or the press.

Nobody appears to have a clue about how even to approach the Israeli/Palestinian standoff - and all the other consequences of an Iraq invasion get no discussion on the newsfotainment.

All I can see coming is: Titanic, maiden voyage, must break Atlantic crossing record: GO --> Ready? [what puny icebergs?] Get Set?? ... in that order.


Ashton
New Oh say can you see
that this is not the same USA as it once was? We have become a Parody of the real USA. This is more of a McUSA or MSUSA, available to the highest bidder from the MegaCorps. We are slowly losing our rights as citizens, and that shocks me. You have shown yet another example of how things are going wrong with our country. I love our country, best in the world, but it is going to hell in a handbasket. I am not sure what to do about it, except try to vote out those who are in office who make these boneheaded decisions. That is the only power that I have, but it is just one voice in a sea of millions of registered voters. Many do not vote, and that is just plain sad. Many are fooled by the canidates lies and illusions. But not me, I vote my conscience, not my party or for the two main choices.

As a member of the FBI, you know more about what is going on than the rest of us do. So please tell us your personal experience with this.

For an Alternative Nearly To Imitate IWETHEY please visit [link|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey|the ANTIIWETHEY Board]
providing an alternative to IWETHEY since December 2002
New Re: Oh say can you see
orion posts--

As a member of the FBI, you know more about what is going on than the rest of us do. So please tell us your personal experience with this.

Since it referenced my post #72759 as parent, I just wanted to state for the record that I've never been on the FBI payroll or, indeed, had any connection with that worthy apparatus of state repression that I'm aware of.

cordially,



"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New Hmm... But if you were, wouldn't you say the same thing? :-)
New deep cover
There is a story--probably apocryphal, but amusing nonetheless--that in the 1950s a cell of the CPUSA (American Communist Party) agreed to disband when it was discovered that every single member was an undercover police informant of one sort or another from various federal, state and local arms of law enforcement.

Of course, I could be mentioning this merely to seem like a funny, irreverent kinda guy rather than the soulless, blackhearted, Hoover-worshipping G-Man ALL YOUR DISCUSSION LOGS ARE BELONG TO US that I am.

cordially,

"Die Welt ist alles, was der Fall ist."
New reminds me of the SDS meetings called them squadroom meets
will work for cash and other incentives [link|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html|skill set]

You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
New ie the oxymoron of all oxies -
Trust Me. I'm Honest!


:-\ufffd
New Re: Oh say can you see
Sorry my mistake, I thought you were another person. My memory must be playing tricks on me again. One of my talks with Monty on the phone mentioned that you were an FBI agent. But then, like me, he may have confused you with someone else. For those who don't know, Monty is the owner of the Apple Doomsday Clock where I first met rcareaga online. MGABRYS is yet another personality to be heard from on here, too bad he doesn't have the time to get on here, with his job situation and the like. He said that one of the posters on his board was a undercover FBI Agent or something, but at the time to be honest he was a bit talking about a lot of things like I was and either he confused it or I confused it. In any case, my bad, sorry about that.


Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesh*t will do! ;)
New Jeeze - if he *is* FBI - lets have more like him <grin>

Articulate, witty, humour & has a brain.

That sure beats having propagandists who *might* be secret agent wannabes employed in REMF who *might* have been asked to join on-line discussion groups to keep them 'honest' & 'informed' no matter how.

Cheers Doug
(big smile)
     American empire - (rcareaga) - (16)
         britain, italy, greece, turkey is the America of the future? - (boxley) - (2)
             Re: britain, italy, greece, turkey is the America of the fut - (rcareaga) - (1)
                 sometimes but most of the time you would hire it done - (boxley)
         Get the full book... - (CRConrad)
         He's making a fundamental mistake. - (Brandioch) - (1)
             Not Adams. He was right on. - (deSitter)
         Good article! Thanks for link. - (a6l6e6x)
         If anyone in Congress actually reads NYT, - (Ashton)
         Oh say can you see - (orion) - (7)
             Re: Oh say can you see - (rcareaga) - (6)
                 Hmm... But if you were, wouldn't you say the same thing? :-) -NT - (CRConrad) - (3)
                     deep cover - (rcareaga) - (2)
                         reminds me of the SDS meetings called them squadroom meets -NT - (boxley)
                         ie the oxymoron of all oxies - - (Ashton)
                 Re: Oh say can you see - (orion) - (1)
                     Jeeze - if he *is* FBI - lets have more like him <grin> - (dmarker)

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