Re: Is that really your dream?

Post #72,706 by deSitter 1/5/03 3:13:21 PM Reply	Re: Is that really your dream? My "dream" is a healthy, stable, and productive economy. But, as to the points made: Different classes of people for finding errors in code and fixing them? 3 different unions to turn off a machine, and a fourth to fix it? Nonsense. IT is like electricity, or plumbling, or the truck fleet. Does that mean you can't work in accounting and know something about IT? Of course not. Such a person may even hold some administrative authority over his local systems. But the infrastructure of computing is clearly identifiable, requires specific skills, and demands specialized personnel, like a truck fleet or a plumbing system or an electrical power grid. You're asking for artificial caps on productivity. Well, guess what - money will go where productivity is higher. It's already doing that. The real answer is for us to give up our inflated salaries and come back to Earth. If someone can do what I am doing for 1/5th or 1/3rd of my salary, he'll get hired. Sorry, basic math. I don't know exactly what you are saying here. Elaborate. -drl
Post #72,858 by bluke 1/6/03 3:37:16 AM 1/6/03 3:45:17 AM Reply	Unions kill productivity in many ways 1. Unions hold down productivity by introducing ridiculous work rules such as the ones mentioned above (a personal example, I couldn't move my PC 3 feet to another desk, it had to be done by the union). 2. Seniority rules - the longer you are on the job the more money you make, the better shifts you get, etc. nothing to do with your ability. You could be an idiot, but if you are a 20 year veteran idiot you are compensated better then a new guy who has some great new ideas. 3. Can't lay people off or fire them - Do you know how hard it is to fire a unionized city worker? It is basically impossible. The guy can sit around and do nothing all day but his managers can't touch him. 4. Other - unions are almost against merit bonuses, for example the UFT (United Federation of Teachers) has consistently opposed merit pay [link\|http://www.nycp.org/Web_News/General_Partnership/NYPOST_COM%20Regional%20News%20KLEIN'S%20BOOSTER%20$HOT%20By%20CARL%20CAMPANILE.htm\|KLEIN'S BOOSTER $HOT] "United Federation of Teachers president Randi Weingarten said Klein had the right to reward his top managers - but continues to oppose merit pay for teachers. " I wonder why? Edited by bluke Jan. 6, 2003, 03:45:17 AM EST Expand All History
Post #72,863 by broomberg 1/6/03 6:37:46 AM 1/6/03 6:38:21 AM Reply	Bad example As much as I agree with your sentiment, your PC example is not good. PCs are connected to the network. PCs can affect the network when there is a flaky connection. Users ignore cable strain. Users think they can do no harm. Users move PCs, introduce a problem that takes days to tracks down, affecting everyone on their hub/switch/workgroup. While YOU may be perfectly capable of moving your PC without damage, there are very few of you compared to the unwashed masses, and that rule should stay for most organizations. Except for mine of course. I'm the only end-user with a 200' power cord to the computer room so I can use the big UPSs for my office. So of course, I also have my own switch and subnet. Edited by broomberg Jan. 6, 2003, 06:38:21 AM EST Expand All History
Post #72,881 by bluke 1/6/03 10:08:54 AM 1/6/03 10:26:33 AM Reply	Duplicate post - ignore Edited by bluke Jan. 6, 2003, 10:26:33 AM EST Expand All History
Post #72,894 by boxley 1/6/03 10:36:09 AM Reply	HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! sorry couldnt help it A lot of developers are a menace, present company excepted of course, thanx, bill will work for cash and other incentives [link\|http://home.tampabay.rr.com/boxley/resume/Resume.html\|skill set] You think that you can trust the government to look after your rights? ask an Indian
Post #72,886 by bluke 1/6/03 10:18:12 AM Reply	Not really ... For a number of reasons. Firstly, developers are not the unwashed masses. Developers need flexibility and can usually be trusted to handle these kinds of minor issues. This is exactly the problem with unions. They create very rigid rules that can NEVER be bent or broken. This is clearly anti-productivity. Secondly, the network administrator was ok with it and was willing to help me, except that he also wasn't allowed as he wasn't part of the union either. In fact, the union guy who eventually came to move my PC was not exactly a PC "expert", he was a guy who moved things.
Post #72,892 by orion 1/6/03 10:34:12 AM Reply	But remember this not all developers are hardware experts. I know this to be a fact. I recall one of them moving his PC and he put a crimp in his Cat5 cable which caused a network condition that took down a hub. Another one bumped the PC so much that it caused the hard drive connector to become unplugged. The worst case of all, was two developers who took a scanner to an out of state office. I told them to park the scanning head using the software that came with the unit, and then to put the green plastic thingie in place to prevent movement while they drove it there in their car. When they got to the other office, the scanner would not work anymore. They apparently ignored my instructions on how to secure the scanner from the bumpy roads they took. But they blamed it on the software I helped develop. Until I told them to use the scanner software to try and scan in something, and it did the same thing. Then they confessed that they didn't do a thing to secure the scanner before they moved it. So who needs a Union to mess things up? This was back in 1995 when Scanners were expensive. For an Alternative Nearly To Imitate IWETHEY please visit [link\|http://pub75.ezboard.com/bantiiwethey\|the ANTIIWETHEY Board] providing an alternative to IWETHEY since December 2002
Post #73,022 by static 1/6/03 5:48:25 PM Reply	You have the heart of it. I've been in a position where the network administrators trusted me to do things for myself that they should do. But I only ever needed to call on them when I had a problem beyond my control (e.g. with a server). If we'd been unionised, they wouldn't have been able to grant me that. Which was exactly the problem you cited. Wade. Microsoft are clearly boiling the frogs.
Post #73,067 by tonytib 1/6/03 9:21:05 PM Reply	Actually, there are ways around their rigid rules Based on talking with people who've done automation work in auto plants, the union rules can be a real pain. However....if you can get union supervisor to like you, he may "look the other way" while you do action X (flip a breaker, etc). But, that's not a good way to run a business (relying on ignoring stupid rules to get work done in a timely manner). Then again, neither is forcing unpaid overtime on hourly workers (see Walmart in Oregon). So there is a very valid place for unions. Also, I don't there should be any inherent link between unions and rigid work practices -- that's just the way our current dinosaur unions developed. Tony
Post #73,077 by orion 1/6/03 9:41:39 PM Reply	How about we split the difference and pass laws that make it unlawfull for a company to: Force unpaid overtime on employees. Overwork an employee just to try and make them quit. Fire an employee without due cause (Missouri is an At-will state, they can fire us for no reason at all). Fire an employee for following orders of their supervisor. Fire an employee because they have a medical illness and the company does not know how to manage them any more. (This is what I believe happened to me twice) Force an employee to do things not in their job description, or else they get fired. I could think up more, but [link\|http://www.dilbert.com\|The Dilbert Comic Strip] has documented the many many abuses put on IT workers and Engineers. **Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesht will do! ;)***
Post #73,127 by hnick 1/7/03 7:29:51 AM Reply	Nice thought but unfeasible Salaried overtime has been around so long it would be grandfathered into any new legislation. Overwork is kinda subjective... it's not overwork, it's "stretch goals". At-Will states got that way because corporations bought the proper politicians. If they are honest politicians, they will stay bought, so you would have to buy a suitable crowd to reverse the legislation. Some of the 'honest' ones are probably still in office. This could be difficult. If the original pols were not honest, you have a bidding war against corporate interests. For the corporations, politicians are cheaper in the long run than workers, and somewhat more versatile in that you can use them for a range of things. It would be a terrible precident for management if management was to have to take responsiblilty for their gaffes. Of course they will pass down blame. Work outside of a job description? I can't speak for anybody else, but I LIKE new things. I LIKE today to be different from yesterday. For what they pay me, they are not about to hand me a broom, but if they did, it would be a break from the constant pressure, and I could wander about with my broom picking up on what everybody else is getting into. Hmmm.... doesn't sound too bad for a short term break. And the place is largely carpeted... Never mind... just daydreaming... Sorry, but I don't think andybody else, supernatural or otherwise, is going to come by and make your life wonderful. Your odds are better on the lottery. You have to do it pretty much yourself.
Post #73,346 by orion 1/8/03 7:03:25 AM Reply	Re: Nice thought but unfeasible Equal pay for equal work. If I am forced to work 80 hours a week, I except to at least get a bonus check for it. Not nothing but paid for 40 hours. If I get 39 hours a week due to a sickness or something, I catch unholy heck for it, despite me making the extra hour or hours up the next week for it. Yet they don't even bat an eyebrow at the 50, 60, and 80 hours I do on other weeks for them. Strech goals? More like mismanagement over how long a job should actually take to get done. Managers are always underbidding the hours, and then forcing us to work extra hours to make up for their mistakes. So if they say something should take two weeks to get done, and then they see that it really should have been two months, they force us to work 60 to 80 hours a week in two weeks to get it done. The Pyramid Builders in Egypt had a system like this with whips, you know. At-Will which only goes to show that we have the best government that money can buy. Management always passed down the blame, I've yet to see any manager take responsibility for their own blunders. Better to blame a peon or two and fire them, than admit to making a mistake. IT Workers have become whipping boys/girls. I bet you like doing Data Entry, or moving computers around, or doing QA work, or being forced to do anything but your own job, and then get told that your own job is not getting done, right? That is a trick they use to bring down your productivity in your job description to make it look like you aren't being productive. I am not talking about sweeping floors or scrubbing toliets, but don't give management any ideas. I am not talking about a wonderful life, just a decent one where I get the respect I should get, and I get a job were I am treated fairly. Not those IT Jobs where management considers IT workers to be "A dime a dozen" and can fire many on the spot for no reason at all. **Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesht will do! ;)***
Post #73,350 by hnick 1/8/03 7:45:22 AM Reply	Oh good, you mostly agree with me >>Equal pay for equal work<< Long hours happen. If it happens a lot without compensation, vote with your feet. >>Strech goals<< Yup. Thats the way it works. See above solution. >>At-Will which only goes to show that we have the best government that money can buy.<< I knew that you understood the American way. >>Management always passed down the blame<< Yup. And union manangement is going to change corporate management? Union managment IS corporate management. >>I bet you like doing ....<< At the end of the day, my job is to get things designed and built. If I have to build a custom environement, that's just part of the job. I've had to do data entry, QA, build machines, move machines, run cables, install power lines because we didn't have 220V lines in the lab, build custom utilites so the QA people can do their jobs, and a lot more. Do what you have to do to get the job done. If it becomes onerous, vote with your feet. >>I am not talking about a wonderful life, just a decent one where I get the respect I should get, and I get a job were I am treated fairly.<< Respect is not something you automatically get. It is earned. Fair treatment is a matter of perspective. If you are more valuable to your employer, the employer would consider it more fair to take care of you in favor of somebody who is immediately replaceable. The employee is not likely to look at things like that. Like I said, perspective and the feet thing. Hugh
Post #73,355 by orion 1/8/03 9:29:35 AM Reply	Vote with your feet? Not in this current job market you cannot vote with your feet unless you still live at home with your folks and can mooch off of them until you find another job. Which may take years, I know of friends who did that and now wish they didn't. One of them has a record three years without a job. Yo see, you shouldn't have to vote with your feet if you had representation or respect. **Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesht will do! ;)***
Post #73,602 by hnick 1/9/03 7:17:20 AM Reply	Nothing is intolerable until you have a choice. If you literally have no choices, do the best you can with what you have. If you have a choice, vote with feet. Altruists should be viewed with suspicion. Nobody is going to represent you out of the goodness of thier hearts. They are going to want a slice out of an already shrinking pie. This would not likely bode well for you. Nobody is going to give you respect. You have to earn it. Nobody guaranteed you a wonderful life. Just life, since you got it anyway. The rest is up to you. Good luck, Hugh
Post #73,625 by orion 1/9/03 9:23:59 AM Reply	Re: Nothing is intolerable until you have a choice. Trust me, I worked at that stinkhole called a law firm for four and a half years and helped invent a practice area system and did a docket calendar all by myself, etc which saved the company millions. Yet I still did not get one iota of respect for it. I earned bloody repsect, but I didn't get any. Why? Because programmers are "a dime a dozen" these days and easily replaceable once their pay raises have them earning too much and they can be replaced with someone who earns less. How often I wanted to leave, I was looking, but I could never find anything. I was always second or third best for a job placement, but they only wanted one person. In other words I had no choice, no respect, no chance of survival, I got fired and replaced with someone who works cheaper and gives cheaper quality products than I did. The law firm is still trying to get .NET and Office 2000 working since 2001. Does that tell you anything? My reconmendation was to wait until Service Pack 3 to .NET before deploying it, but management wanted to deploy the beta! So now I just sit at home and occasionally talk to an ex-coworker who still works there and find out their progress, which is slower than any other progress they have done. Microsoft has them sold on .Net; however, they cannot seem to convert over to it, or get it to do what they want it to do. **Pete Moss' Peat Moss, when only the finest horsesht will do! ;)***
Post #73,097 by Ashton 1/6/03 10:24:33 PM Reply	Yes, the word Union blinds to - the possibilities in '02+
Post #72,897 by Arkadiy 1/6/03 10:37:22 AM Reply	Re: Is that really your dream? Nonsense. IT is like electricity, or plumbling, or the truck fleet. Does that mean you can't work in accounting and know something about IT? Of course not. Such a person may even hold some administrative authority over his local systems. But the infrastructure of computing is clearly identifiable, requires specific skills, and demands specialized personnel, like a truck fleet or a plumbing system or an electrical power grid. I don't know exactly what you are saying here. Elaborate. :) Now, to answer your question... You're trying to introduce an artificial scarcity, much like Holywood is attempting to do with DRM. If someone is willing to do your job at 1/4 the price, you can have Union mafia beat him up, or you can have INS deport him, but it does not change the basic fact: your job can be done cheaper. So, you have 2 real options: make yourself irreplacable by doing a much better job, or lower your rate. Anything else, including "union", is an attempt to legislate economics. Doesn't work with drugs, with alcohgol, with CDs. Won't work with programmers. -- We have only 2 things to worry about: That things will never get back to normal, and that they already have.

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