IWETHEY v. 0.3.0 | TODO
1,095 registered users | 0 active users | 0 LpH | Statistics
Login | Create New User
IWETHEY Banner

Welcome to IWETHEY!

New Since you seem to be missing the point...
Here it is again.

Your attitude is that people should not use tools unless they know everything relevant to its proper usage. Your definition of what is relevant seems to be that if it might come up, then they need to know it. This is a circular definition of relevancy that justifies any particular dependency in hindsight as the user's fault for not knowing better.

Now I know that [link|http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html|abstractions leak]. (That is one of the few articles by Joel that I agree with incidentally.) Furthermore I often find myself being in the position of being the person around who understands what abstractions leak, and why. There is no fundamental solution to that problem. Shit happens, and plumbers are needed for it.

However one mark of a programmer that you want to have around is the ability to see shit and recognize it for what it is. Leaking abstractions are signs of shit. While they may be inevitable, they are not something that you want to take lightly. Because a system built by people with too much tolerance for that inevitably degrades into a complete mess.

In this case the leaking abstraction is one of the worst kinds to have. Different filesystems use the same words for subtly different abstractions. This makes it hard for most people to even verbalize that there is a difference, let alone what it is. (When the same thing happens in speech you get classic threads where people talk past each other at length.) And when you try to combine them into one abstraction, the gaps keep on leaking past.

So yes, it happens for good reason. But it is a basic design flaw in the system. And it is not one to belittle people for getting tripped up by, nor is it one that has a simple right answer.

Cheers,
Ben
"Career politicians are inherently untrustworthy; if it spends its life buzzing around the outhouse, it\ufffds probably a fly."
- [link|http://www.nationalinterest.org/issues/58/Mead.html|Walter Mead]
New Re: Since you seem to be missing the point...
Ben Tilly wrote:

Your attitude is that people should not use tools unless they know everything relevant to its proper usage.

Not quite. Rather: I mildly (and not at all insistently, given that it's really not my problem) suggest that people should take responsibility for what they do. If you choose to use tools without adequately understanding them, you can pound your thumb with a misaimed hammer. The choice of taking that risk may be reasonable; the point is to not expect pity when you screw up and hurt yourself.

Personally, I prefer education over "learning experiences". Less painful.

Remainder of your post duly ignored as furious and tedious pummeling of an irrelevant straw man. Therapeutic though, I'm sure.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
     Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (dmarker) - (122)
         Re: Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (tjsinclair) - (8)
             Re: Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (deSitter) - (2)
                 Regarding the mouse - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                     Re: Regarding the mouse - (deSitter)
             Linux kernel - (rickmoen) - (4)
                 The presumption is... - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                     Re: The presumption is... - (rickmoen) - (1)
                         Having the option is valuable, even if not exercised - (ben_tilly)
                     Nah - (tuberculosis)
         MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen) - (110)
             I guess this is what we get - (tjsinclair) - (81)
                 Well, no, it's not a Linux thing at all - (rickmoen) - (80)
                     Re: Well, no, it's not a Linux thing at all - (dmarker) - (78)
                         Workplace OS rocked - (rickmoen) - (77)
                             good criticism, but only half right (re. filesystems) - (cwbrenn) - (8)
                                 On FAT vs HPFS - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                     Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                         Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (deSitter) - (4)
                                             Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (Steve Lowe) - (3)
                                                 Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                     3 copies now on eBay. IBM has it too for $180. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                     consider picking up eCS - (SpiceWare)
                                 Er, I did say two volumes... - (rickmoen)
                             Partial agreement here - (tjsinclair) - (67)
                                 Thanks for that - (rickmoen) - (4)
                                     Very True (TANGENT) - (cwbrenn) - (3)
                                         Proprietary forks and threat models - (rickmoen) - (2)
                                             Dystopian Vision - (cwbrenn) - (1)
                                                 Re: Dystopian Vision - (rickmoen)
                                 Accident waiting to happen - (tuberculosis) - (61)
                                     You found a way to break your files? Sorry to hear. - (rickmoen) - (60)
                                         You're wrong again as usual - stick to Linux -NT - (tuberculosis) - (59)
                                             Verily, the technopeasant priesthood has spoken - (rickmoen) - (58)
                                                 You don't actually *use* the system, do you. - (tuberculosis) - (57)
                                                     Unix file basics - (rickmoen) - (56)
                                                         HFS File basics - (tuberculosis) - (42)
                                                             Envoi - (rickmoen) - (41)
                                                                 You could run the correct test - (ben_tilly) - (40)
                                                                     This would be my cue to ask this: (new thread) - (static)
                                                                     Exactly - thanks -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     I am understanding unix&tar has different capabilities? - (boxley) - (34)
                                                                         Not sure what you are asking - (tuberculosis)
                                                                         No - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                             my point was Nix tools do not understand all file systems - (boxley)
                                                                         You understand wrong - (kmself) - (30)
                                                                             well lets try it out - (boxley) - (9)
                                                                                 You know dam well... - (folkert) - (4)
                                                                                     point==missed - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                         Windows, MAC OSX, MacOS9.x, *NIX - (folkert) - (2)
                                                                                             ed zachery -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                             Windows has the bigger problem... - (ChrisR)
                                                                                 Wrong - (kmself) - (3)
                                                                                     The reason I brought this upo was recovering files from a - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                         Two possible issues I can think of... - (kmself) - (1)
                                                                                             It was over a year ago so bear with me - (boxley)
                                                                             Once again, Todd's explanation - (ben_tilly) - (19)
                                                                                 Using a hammer to drive screws will hurt - (rickmoen) - (18)
                                                                                     I understand your position perfectly - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                         Re: I understand your position perfectly - (rickmoen) - (9)
                                                                                             If it is not a straw man... - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                 Re: If it is not a straw man... - (rickmoen) - (7)
                                                                                                     Funny, I concluded the same as Ben - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                                         Re: Funny, I concluded the same as Ben - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                                                                                             Little story - you might find it entertaining - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                                 Excellent story. Going on the wall. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                                 This my dear friend... (new thread) - (folkert)
                                                                                                             Since you seem to be missing the point... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Re: Since you seem to be missing the point... - (rickmoen)
                                                                                     I do not think that word means what you think it means. - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                         Hello, you must be going. - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                                                                             This is obvious? - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                                                                 Re: This is obvious? - (rickmoen) - (3)
                                                                                                     At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                         Re: At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                                                                             Topic at hand - point out what you claim is "obvious" (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     Basic point seems to have been missed - (rickmoen) - (2)
                                                                         Yes you have missed it - (tuberculosis)
                                                                         I see so to use OSX effectively - (boxley)
                                                         Never used Apple OSes in my life, - (Arkadiy) - (12)
                                                             Re: Never used Apple OSes in my life, - (rickmoen) - (11)
                                                                 For certain kind of user - (Arkadiy) - (10)
                                                                     Re: For certain kind of user - (rickmoen) - (9)
                                                                         Gee - got an ISBN for that manual? - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                             Re: Gee - got an ISBN for that manual? - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                                                 He had no difficulty in figuring out how the system works - (ben_tilly)
                                                                         rm - the ultimate corruptor -NT - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                                                             ouch! R.M. - the ultimate corruptor. -NT - (Arkadiy)
                                                                             rm -rf / - (inthane-chan)
                                                                         isnt that the beauty of nix? It does what it is commanded to - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                             Well, personally.. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                 yup my intro to unix - (boxley)
                     Understood, I just meant - (tjsinclair)
             So where exactly IS NeXT Step in the mix? - (cwbrenn) - (3)
                 I believe it's the Cocoa API + Objective C -NT - (tjsinclair)
                 As I said. - (rickmoen)
                 Its the GUI lib - (tuberculosis)
             Who is Apple Computer? - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                 Pin terpsichory - (rickmoen)
                 Legal matters, GNUStep - (rickmoen) - (6)
                     Did you take a pendantic pill this morning or what? - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                         Rick get his pedantic in suppository form ;-) -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                             We have a suppository forum? - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                 flame and politics, the suppositories post there :-) -NT - (boxley)
                         But they're only application libraries! - (rickmoen) - (1)
                             You're a loony. (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
             I thought Sun bought NextStep - (boxley) - (3)
                 You're probably thinking of NeWS - (rickmoen) - (2)
                     Nope this is what I remembered Jobs and Sun, OpenStep - (boxley)
                     No, he's thinking of NextStep - (tuberculosis)
             Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (karnak) - (10)
                 Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen) - (9)
                     Nothing wrong with a 68040. - (admin) - (4)
                         Semi-OT: Fatboy Slim still does all his work on an Atari ST -NT - (Meerkat) - (3)
                             That's what I used originally - (admin) - (2)
                                 Do you sound as bad? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     Worse. - (admin)
                     Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (karnak) - (3)
                         Comparison of OpenStep & WindowMaker? - (kmself)
                         Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen)
                         Have you considered GNUStep? - (orion)
         Apple and Linux - (orion) - (1)
             Do you ever think before you type? -NT - (tuberculosis)

I am LRPD, millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht.
263 ms