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New I do not think that word means what you think it means.
"Using an obviously unsuitable tool for a particular task"

One day you will have to perhaps define your version of this word.

Firing up a terminal on OS X and navigating to an HFS file system, I find that I can:

ls
cat
mv
cp
chown
chgrp
chmod
ln
rm

Within an HFS volume and across HFS volumes just fine.

IOW, it appears that the developers of OS X have taken some pains to make sure that these tools work as expected on both UFS and HFS volumes. I fact, in the Fred Sanchez paper I cited awhile back, it describes the interesting strategies used to emulate hard links, soft links, file ownership, etc, that were taken to make the system behave as expected.

Its unfortunate that the illusion is incomplete (though I remain hopeful that this will be rectified with a future release).

But sometime you are going to have to share your definition of obvious with us.

Because what is clearly obvious to me is that what you claim to be obvious is not at all obvious to a daily user of the system.

It had been some months of daily command line development (I generally use vi and makefiles when I work - so is all in the shell) before I was bitten by the tar/cp/mv issue.
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
Collapse Edited by tuberculosis Dec. 30, 2002, 07:52:16 AM EST
I do not that that word means what you think it means.
"Using an obviously unsuitable tool for a particular task"

One day you will have to perhaps define your version of this word.

Firing up a terminal on OS X and navigating to an HFS file system, I find that I can:

ls
cat
mv
cp
chown
chgrp
chmod
ln
rm

Within an HFS volume and across HFS volumes just fine.

IOW, it appears that the developers of OS X have taken some pains to make sure that these tools work as expected on both UFS and HFS volumes. I fact, in the Fred Sanchez paper I cited awhile back, it describes the interesting strategies used to emulate hard links, soft links, file ownership, etc, that were taken to make the system behave as expected.

Its unfortunate that the illusion is incomplete (though I remain hopeful that this will be rectified with a future release).

But sometime you are going to have to share your definition of obvious with us.

Because what is clearly obvious to me is that what you claim to be obvious is not at all obvious to a daily user of the system.

It had been some months of daily command line development (I generally use vi and makefiles when I work - so is all in the shell) before I was bitten by the tar/cp/mv issue.

I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
New Hello, you must be going.
Hi there! I said we were done, and I meant that.

However, on your way back to whatever it is that you do, you might consider the merits of consulting manpages before just blithely assuming that someone has custom-modified a standard tool like GNU tar and GNU cpio/afio to perform operations they do nowhere else on the planet.

Or, if you prefer, you can ignore such considerations and bitch when reality bites you in the ass. Feel free to work out your options, somewhere.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
New This is obvious?
You wanna point out the obvious part?

Yeah, right. I don't see the letters UFS in there anywhere.

I don't see the letters HFS in there anywhere.

I imagine what you meant by "man" must have been the source code, eh?

>man tar

TAR(1) System General Commands Manual TAR(1)

NAME
tar - tape archiver

SYNOPSIS
tar [-]{crtux}[befhmopvwzHLPXZ014578] [archive] [blocksize] [-C directory
] [-s replstr ] file1 [file2...]

DESCRIPTION
The tar command creates, adds files to, or extracts files from an archive
file in tar format. A tar archive is often stored on a magnetic tape,
but can be a floppy or a regular disk file.

One of the following flags must be present:

-c Create new archive, or overwrite an existing archive,
adding the specified files to it.

-r Append the named new files to existing archive. Note that
this will only work on media on which an end-of-file mark
can be overwritten.

-t List contents of archive. If any files are named on the
command line, only those files will be listed.

-u Alias for -r

-x Extract files from archive. If any files are named on the
command line, only those files will be extracted from the
archive. If more than one copy of a file exists in the
archive, later copies will overwrite earlier copies during
extration.

In addition to the flags mentioned above, any of the following flags may
be used:

-b blocking factor
Set blocking factor to use for the archive, tar uses 512
byte blocks. The default is 20, the maximum is 126.
Archives with a blocking factor larger 63 violate the POSIX
standard and will not be portable to all systems.

-e Stop after first error.

-f archive Filename where the archive is stored. Defaults to
/dev/rst0

-h Follow symbolic links as if they were normal files or
directories.

-m Do not preserve modification time.

-O Write old-style (non-POSIX) archives.

-o Don't write directory information that the older (V7) style
tar is unable to decode. This implies the -O flag.

-p Preserve user id, group id, file mode, access and modifica-
tion times if possible. The user id and group id will only
be set if the user is the superuser (unless these values
correspond to the user's user and group ids).

-s replstr Modify the file or archive member names specified by the
pattern or file operands according to the substitution
expression replstr, using the syntax of the ed(1) utility
regular expressions. The format of these regular expres-
sions are:
/old/new/[gp]
As in ed(1), old is a basic regular expression and new can
contain an ampersand (&), \\n (where n is a digit) back-ref-
erences, or subexpression matching. The old string may
also contain <newline> characters. Any non-null character
can be used as a delimiter (/ is shown here). Multiple -s
expressions can be specified. The expressions are applied
in the order they are specified on the command line, termi-
nating with the first successful substitution. The
optional trailing g continues to apply the substitution
expression to the pathname substring which starts with the
first character following the end of the last successful
substitution. The first unsuccessful substitution stops the
operation of the g option. The optional trailing p will
cause the final result of a successful substitution to be
written to standard error in the following format:
<original pathname> >> <new pathname>
File or archive member names that substitute to the empty
string are not selected and will be skipped.

-v Verbose operation mode.

-w Interactively rename files. This option causes tar to
prompt the user for the filename to use when storing or
extracting files in an archive.

-z Compress archive using gzip.

-C directory This is a positional argument which sets the working direc-
tory for the following files. When extracting, files will
be extracted into the specified directory; when creating,
the specified files will be matched from the directory.

-H Follow symlinks given on command line only.

-L Follow all symlinks.

-P Do not strip leading slashes (``/'') from pathnames. The
default is to strip leading slashes.

-X Do not cross mount points in the file system.

-Z Compress archive using compress.

The options [-014578] can be used to select one of the compiled-in backup
devices, /dev/rstN.

FILES
/dev/rst0 The default archive name

SEE ALSO
pax(1), cpio(1)

AUTHOR
Keith Muller at the University of California, San Diego

ERRORS
tar will exit with one of the following values:

0 All files were processed successfully.

1 An error occured.

Whenever tar cannot create a file or a link when extracting an archive or
cannot find a file while writing an archive, or cannot preserve the user
ID, group ID, file mode or access and modification times when the -p
options is specified, a diagnostic message is written to standard error
and a non-zero exit value will be returned, but processing will continue.
In the case where tar cannot create a link to a file, tar will not create
a second copy of the file.

If the extraction of a file from an archive is prematurely terminated by
a signal or error, tar may have only partially extracted the file the
user wanted. Additionally, the file modes of extracted files and direc-
tories may have incorrect file bits, and the modification and access
times may be wrong.

If the creation of an archive is prematurely terminated by a signal or
error, tar may have only partially created the archive which may violate
the specific archive format specification.

BSD June 11, 1996 BSD

I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
New Re: This is obvious?
ToddBlanchard wrote:

You wanna point out the obvious part?

It's the part where you understand the basics of how files are stored on your filesystems, understand how GNU tar / GNU cpio work, and avoid assuming (without confirmation) that those tools perform special functions, there, that they carry out nowhere else on the planet.

Khendon's Law duly invoked. Va t'en.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
New At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge
thus you did not answer the question.

What is obvious to me is your lack of knowledge and use of bluster to compensate.
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
New Re: At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge
ToddBlanchard wrote, before reverting to argumentum ad hominem:

thus you did not answer the question.

Indeed, Chuckles. I was addressing the UFS/FFS topic at hand, which does not necessarily mean "answering your questions". You have perhaps confused me with some paid sidekick.

Now, run along.

Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com


If you lived here, you'd be $HOME already.
New Topic at hand - point out what you claim is "obvious" (new thread)
Created as new thread #71964 titled [link|/forums/render/content/show?contentid=71964|Topic at hand - point out what you claim is "obvious"]
I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.
     Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (dmarker) - (122)
         Re: Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (tjsinclair) - (8)
             Re: Windows Linux and Mac OS X - a new hallelujia !!! - (deSitter) - (2)
                 Regarding the mouse - (tjsinclair) - (1)
                     Re: Regarding the mouse - (deSitter)
             Linux kernel - (rickmoen) - (4)
                 The presumption is... - (ben_tilly) - (3)
                     Re: The presumption is... - (rickmoen) - (1)
                         Having the option is valuable, even if not exercised - (ben_tilly)
                     Nah - (tuberculosis)
         MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen) - (110)
             I guess this is what we get - (tjsinclair) - (81)
                 Well, no, it's not a Linux thing at all - (rickmoen) - (80)
                     Re: Well, no, it's not a Linux thing at all - (dmarker) - (78)
                         Workplace OS rocked - (rickmoen) - (77)
                             good criticism, but only half right (re. filesystems) - (cwbrenn) - (8)
                                 On FAT vs HPFS - (Another Scott) - (6)
                                     Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                         Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (deSitter) - (4)
                                             Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (Steve Lowe) - (3)
                                                 Re: On FAT vs HPFS - (deSitter) - (2)
                                                     3 copies now on eBay. IBM has it too for $180. -NT - (Another Scott)
                                                     consider picking up eCS - (SpiceWare)
                                 Er, I did say two volumes... - (rickmoen)
                             Partial agreement here - (tjsinclair) - (67)
                                 Thanks for that - (rickmoen) - (4)
                                     Very True (TANGENT) - (cwbrenn) - (3)
                                         Proprietary forks and threat models - (rickmoen) - (2)
                                             Dystopian Vision - (cwbrenn) - (1)
                                                 Re: Dystopian Vision - (rickmoen)
                                 Accident waiting to happen - (tuberculosis) - (61)
                                     You found a way to break your files? Sorry to hear. - (rickmoen) - (60)
                                         You're wrong again as usual - stick to Linux -NT - (tuberculosis) - (59)
                                             Verily, the technopeasant priesthood has spoken - (rickmoen) - (58)
                                                 You don't actually *use* the system, do you. - (tuberculosis) - (57)
                                                     Unix file basics - (rickmoen) - (56)
                                                         HFS File basics - (tuberculosis) - (42)
                                                             Envoi - (rickmoen) - (41)
                                                                 You could run the correct test - (ben_tilly) - (40)
                                                                     This would be my cue to ask this: (new thread) - (static)
                                                                     Exactly - thanks -NT - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     I am understanding unix&tar has different capabilities? - (boxley) - (34)
                                                                         Not sure what you are asking - (tuberculosis)
                                                                         No - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                             my point was Nix tools do not understand all file systems - (boxley)
                                                                         You understand wrong - (kmself) - (30)
                                                                             well lets try it out - (boxley) - (9)
                                                                                 You know dam well... - (folkert) - (4)
                                                                                     point==missed - (boxley) - (3)
                                                                                         Windows, MAC OSX, MacOS9.x, *NIX - (folkert) - (2)
                                                                                             ed zachery -NT - (boxley)
                                                                                             Windows has the bigger problem... - (ChrisR)
                                                                                 Wrong - (kmself) - (3)
                                                                                     The reason I brought this upo was recovering files from a - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                                         Two possible issues I can think of... - (kmself) - (1)
                                                                                             It was over a year ago so bear with me - (boxley)
                                                                             Once again, Todd's explanation - (ben_tilly) - (19)
                                                                                 Using a hammer to drive screws will hurt - (rickmoen) - (18)
                                                                                     I understand your position perfectly - (ben_tilly) - (10)
                                                                                         Re: I understand your position perfectly - (rickmoen) - (9)
                                                                                             If it is not a straw man... - (ben_tilly) - (8)
                                                                                                 Re: If it is not a straw man... - (rickmoen) - (7)
                                                                                                     Funny, I concluded the same as Ben - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                                         Re: Funny, I concluded the same as Ben - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                                                                                             Little story - you might find it entertaining - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                                 Excellent story. Going on the wall. -NT - (admin)
                                                                                                                 This my dear friend... (new thread) - (folkert)
                                                                                                             Since you seem to be missing the point... - (ben_tilly) - (1)
                                                                                                                 Re: Since you seem to be missing the point... - (rickmoen)
                                                                                     I do not think that word means what you think it means. - (tuberculosis) - (6)
                                                                                         Hello, you must be going. - (rickmoen) - (5)
                                                                                             This is obvious? - (tuberculosis) - (4)
                                                                                                 Re: This is obvious? - (rickmoen) - (3)
                                                                                                     At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                                                         Re: At no time did you utter the word "obvious" - nice dodge - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                                                                             Topic at hand - point out what you claim is "obvious" (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
                                                                     Basic point seems to have been missed - (rickmoen) - (2)
                                                                         Yes you have missed it - (tuberculosis)
                                                                         I see so to use OSX effectively - (boxley)
                                                         Never used Apple OSes in my life, - (Arkadiy) - (12)
                                                             Re: Never used Apple OSes in my life, - (rickmoen) - (11)
                                                                 For certain kind of user - (Arkadiy) - (10)
                                                                     Re: For certain kind of user - (rickmoen) - (9)
                                                                         Gee - got an ISBN for that manual? - (tuberculosis) - (2)
                                                                             Re: Gee - got an ISBN for that manual? - (rickmoen) - (1)
                                                                                 He had no difficulty in figuring out how the system works - (ben_tilly)
                                                                         rm - the ultimate corruptor -NT - (Arkadiy) - (2)
                                                                             ouch! R.M. - the ultimate corruptor. -NT - (Arkadiy)
                                                                             rm -rf / - (inthane-chan)
                                                                         isnt that the beauty of nix? It does what it is commanded to - (boxley) - (2)
                                                                             Well, personally.. - (deSitter) - (1)
                                                                                 yup my intro to unix - (boxley)
                     Understood, I just meant - (tjsinclair)
             So where exactly IS NeXT Step in the mix? - (cwbrenn) - (3)
                 I believe it's the Cocoa API + Objective C -NT - (tjsinclair)
                 As I said. - (rickmoen)
                 Its the GUI lib - (tuberculosis)
             Who is Apple Computer? - (tuberculosis) - (8)
                 Pin terpsichory - (rickmoen)
                 Legal matters, GNUStep - (rickmoen) - (6)
                     Did you take a pendantic pill this morning or what? - (tuberculosis) - (5)
                         Rick get his pedantic in suppository form ;-) -NT - (drewk) - (2)
                             We have a suppository forum? - (tuberculosis) - (1)
                                 flame and politics, the suppositories post there :-) -NT - (boxley)
                         But they're only application libraries! - (rickmoen) - (1)
                             You're a loony. (new thread) - (tuberculosis)
             I thought Sun bought NextStep - (boxley) - (3)
                 You're probably thinking of NeWS - (rickmoen) - (2)
                     Nope this is what I remembered Jobs and Sun, OpenStep - (boxley)
                     No, he's thinking of NextStep - (tuberculosis)
             Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (karnak) - (10)
                 Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen) - (9)
                     Nothing wrong with a 68040. - (admin) - (4)
                         Semi-OT: Fatboy Slim still does all his work on an Atari ST -NT - (Meerkat) - (3)
                             That's what I used originally - (admin) - (2)
                                 Do you sound as bad? - (pwhysall) - (1)
                                     Worse. - (admin)
                     Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (karnak) - (3)
                         Comparison of OpenStep & WindowMaker? - (kmself)
                         Re: MacOS X is NeXTStep (and they can keep it, thanks) - (rickmoen)
                         Have you considered GNUStep? - (orion)
         Apple and Linux - (orion) - (1)
             Do you ever think before you type? -NT - (tuberculosis)

Don’t look at me in that tone of voice!
186 ms