Post #7,137
8/29/01 6:04:28 PM
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anti-cop stereotypes popping up again?
"good thing he is white and she is not or he would be in some real trouble."
Do you have any statistics for such a claim?
________________
oop.ismad.com
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Post #7,153
8/29/01 9:05:45 PM
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yes and the remark is not anti cop it is anti white
Alaskan Juidiciary in Anchorage in particular. Take the case of thomas clarence a man with 2 artificial hips 50 yrs old cant turn his head. He is savagely beaten and they broke his spine while he was trying to stop someone from robbing the food out of his home. No arrest because they claim Thomas had been drinking at the time. I even went to the attorney general and they claim with several witnesses and a confession they didnt have enough evidence. Thomas is Indian. Now if you look at cases where Native men have raped white women the years given are triple that of those given whites who rape native women. Why is that?
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #7,161
8/29/01 10:21:47 PM
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Power.
Simple. White Judges, White Juries, White Prosecutors = minority in jail.
I don't know if it's the same in AK, but in WA, juries are pulled from the voter rolls. Minorities traditionally do not vote that much, compared to whites, so juries tend to be predominantly white. In addition, since whites do most of the voting, most people elected to office are white. Admittedly, we have a few exceptions (Gary Locke, to name one) , but even then they tend to be "honorary white folk" already in attitude.
Something you don't realize, even if you have minority friends, is just how prevalent racism is until you become deeply involved with one. My Japanese girlfriend, since she was not from around here, did not experience the institutionalized racism growing up in the U.S. - she saw it, but from the role that we see it from, as her culture looked down on everybody.
Then Susan, who is Filipina, has brought me to a much deeper awareness of just how ingrained racism is in our society. She has fought tooth and nail to get to where she is, truly an impressive woman who has definitely launched herself by her own bootstraps. And yet, hardly a week goes by where we do not experience somebody trying to "put her in her place" for lack of a better way to describe it, whether it is at work, or at the grocery store, or some overheard comment, or being ignored in the store.
I am truly afraid for my children-to-be - they will not have the shield of their skin tone to protect them from their youthful exuberance. I will have to teach them to be cautious around police, to make no sudden movements, to act as if they are under suspicion at all times. I will have to teach them to hold their feelings until there is a better place and forum to express them. I will have to teach them to ignore bullies, because if a white bully tells a school principal that they started it, who will the principal believe? My own experience in High School has shown that it does not matter who started it - it matters what their background is. Whitey=Rightey.
Bill, I know your wife is Native - are you? (Just curious, no inquisition coming - I'm actually 1/16th somewhere back there... As probably we all are...)
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #7,184
8/30/01 8:39:30 AM
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naw just octagon shaped peg that dont fit much
dont worry about yer kids skin color as they will be mistaken for hispanic, italian, and exotic. Mother british Jew father 1/2 geordie 1/2 republican eire. Red recesive genes that sho up every now and again.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #7,190
8/30/01 10:00:31 AM
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Tough call
I will have to teach them to be cautious around police, to make no sudden movements, to act as if they are under suspicion at all times. I'm not going to face this decision myself, so take what I say with a grain of salt. But do you really want to teach your children that they must be suspicious and wary of white people? Because it's either that or teach them that the reason they have to be careful is that there's something wrong with them. I don't doubt that they will someday encounter someone like the client your wife just had recently. But it seems that raising them to expect it will cause them to see it even when it's not there. I'm really sorry that you, or anyone for that matter, have to make this kind of decision. Still, I hope you can figure out a way to teach them that some people won't like them because of how they look, but that those people are the exception rather than the rule. This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #7,202
8/30/01 10:57:20 AM
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And one I don't want to make.
Martin Luther King Junior had a dream, and I have that dream as well. I try to live it in my life, I do try not to judge by the color of skin, but by the content of character. I am not always successful, but I try, and it is the struggle in some ways that is more important than the goal.
Unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn't work that way. I'd rather have living kids pissed off at the universe that deals from the bottom of the deck than a couple of body bags. The trick isn't to get them to hate themselves, or to distrust all white folks, but to realize that the universe ain't fair, and to get them pissed off about THAT to the point where they try to do something about it.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #7,249
8/30/01 3:14:28 PM
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Simple thing I tell my kids they are in the Oxley gang
we dont need other gangs cause we are meaner. And all their cousins who are eskimo are the only ones to trust. If you aint family be polite to all others but dont trust until you know the person very well. Not racist just dislike everyone equally. Until you establish a relationship of some kind.
thanx,
bill
Our bureaucracy and our laws have turned the world into a clean, safe work camp. We are raising a nation of slaves.
Chuck Palahniuk
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Post #7,203
8/30/01 11:03:05 AM
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Is it that simple?
Simple. White Judges, White Juries, White Prosecutors = minority in jail.
I'll presume you mean *A* minority in jail.. Unless you meant that white judges, juries, and procecutors are minorities in jail, which sounds about right... :)
Said that way, it sounds like you're presuming there's a conspiracy. That innocent minorities are being locked away by whitey. I've not seen that.
I've certainly seen the instiutional and personal racism that is deplorable - but conspiracies to wrongly convict minorities are, I think, very rare.
So to further guess, guessing you mean that the minorities don't get the best legal advice, and that they go to jail for something that a white defendant would have been able to walk on....
I don't buy that. Sure, it happens some - but that then is a money issue, not a race issue. (Witness the OJ Simpson trial). Poor white trash has a pretty high conviction rate, in my experience.
Minorities traditionally do not vote that much, compared to whites, so juries tend to be predominantly white.
Probably there, that's true. Down here, its a much more diverse pool. So are you saying the South is less racist because there are that many more blacks in the Jury pool? :)
My Japanese girlfriend, ...as her culture looked down on everybody.
Ain't that the truth. I tell people if you think the US is racist? Spend some time in Japan. (dated a 1/2 Japanese girl for a while (who was 6'1, and wouldn't listen to me about getting her japanese brushed up, and going and playing volleyball for their Olympic team.. :)) She worked at a japanese resturant for a while, and the owner (who was competing with himself to break INS and IRS records at a greater pace) would have left the Klan in the dust.
I will have to teach them to be cautious around police, to make no sudden movements, to act as if they are under suspicion at all times.
I think you might be overreacting, just a tad, here. Or need to move to a nicer place. :)
I will have to teach them to ignore bullies, because if a white bully tells a school principal that they started it, who will the principal believe? My own experience in High School has shown that it does not matter who started it - it matters what their background is. Whitey=Rightey
In recent experience - the school will go into lockdown over the "race" problem, and everybody gets counselled. (my old high school, where my mother was teaching, 2 kids got into the regular sort of 15-year old fist fight. Nothing racial about it, one kid tripped the other, and its intention came into question. :)
I think you're far far overreacting there. Similar to current women's power now - minorities have a huge club to wield. The fairness and equity is debateable, but I don't think you'll find a principal (who is any good), who will dismiss your kids because they're not 100% white.
Having said that, there ARE idiots out there. Guy I worked with at Amex got called to school one day, was told his daughter was being suspended and possibly expelled because she'd punched a boy, and knocked a tooth loose (And actually out).
So as he tried to ask his daughter what had happened, the principal kept telling her to hush, finally he asserted some authority, and his daughter finally got to tell him that the boy had come up, and grabbed her breasts, (leaving bruises). And yes, she'd told the principal that. Father turned, said "Fine, see you in court, we're goin to my lawyer's now" and amazingly, the principal wasn't quite as determined to do anything to the daughter.
How stupid was that?
I mean, here's someone, who is told the story, and *knows* that her breasts were grabbed, and comes to a decision - that of COURSE he'd have to back down on, once the story came out. Stupid, stupid. (I don't know his race, btw, both kids were white).
And that sort of stupidity (which *is* locked into the US educational system) isn't something you can plan on - or tell your kids to predicate their behavior because of it . (And it ain't skin tone that matters).
Its just not that simple. You'll have to raise your kids best you can.
There's loads of stuff that could come up - like the NC family who's in court because the 2 year old chased a cat onto the lawn, naked, for a couple of minutes. Like the 6 year old boys hit with sex harrassment charges.....
Addison
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Post #7,215
8/30/01 11:52:12 AM
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It can be.
Simple. White Judges, White Juries, White Prosecutors = minority in jail.
I'll presume you mean *A* minority in jail.. Unless you meant that white judges, juries, and procecutors are minorities in jail, which sounds about right... :)
Yeah, that's what I meant, but that sounds right too. ^_^
Said that way, it sounds like you're presuming there's a conspiracy. That innocent minorities are being locked away by whitey. I've not seen that.
I've certainly seen the instiutional and personal racism that is deplorable - but conspiracies to wrongly convict minorities are, I think, very rare.
I'm not arguing a conspiracy - just that all-white juries are much more likely to convict a minority of a crime regardless of the evidence if the crime is committed against a white person, and that the sentencing tends to be much more harsh. I doubt people go into deliberation and outright say "Well, (s)he needs to be put in his place."
So to further guess, guessing you mean that the minorities don't get the best legal advice, and that they go to jail for something that a white defendant would have been able to walk on....
Yup. And yes, it's a poverty issue as well, but it's also a matter of the design of laws, as well as shoddy police work (let's find a patsy so we look good),
Minorities traditionally do not vote that much, compared to whites, so juries tend to be predominantly white.
Probably there, that's true. Down here, its a much more diverse pool. So are you saying the South is less racist because there are that many more blacks in the Jury pool? :)
Hell yes. In some ways I envy the south, because at least racism out in the open where everybody can see it. The most dangerous time in a fight against a social ideal is when it drops below the radar and people begin to think it's licked - you don't stop taking antibiotics when the symptoms first go away, do you think that racism is any different a disease? Any battle is easier to fight when your enemy is out in the open. Just ask anybody who fought in Viet Nam.
My Japanese girlfriend, ...as her culture looked down on everybody.
Ain't that the truth. I tell people if you think the US is racist? Spend some time in Japan. (dated a 1/2 Japanese girl for a while (who was 6'1, and wouldn't listen to me about getting her japanese brushed up, and going and playing volleyball for their Olympic team.. :)) She worked at a japanese resturant for a while, and the owner (who was competing with himself to break INS and IRS records at a greater pace) would have left the Klan in the dust.
True dat. Racism is in our blood as a species - some very interesting comments on the "herd mentality of a prey species" were on NPR's All Things Considered yesterday. I do not argue that the US is any more racist than any other country - I just argue that we are racist, and we need to clean up our act.
I will have to teach them to be cautious around police, to make no sudden movements, to act as if they are under suspicion at all times.
I think you might be overreacting, just a tad, here. Or need to move to a nicer place. :)
I'd love to move. The problem is, there's too much family around here, and my wife doesn't want to move. As far as the place goes, we're turning into the worst of LA and New York.
I think you're far far overreacting there. Similar to current women's power now - minorities have a huge club to wield. The fairness and equity is debateable, but I don't think you'll find a principal (who is any good), who will dismiss your kids because they're not 100% white.
The problem is not that there is a big club - it is that there are still bigots out there, and they do a much better job of keeping under the radar, especially if they aren't really aware of their bias. Remember, eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.
Having said that, there ARE idiots out there. Guy I worked with at Amex got called to school one day, was told his daughter was being suspended and possibly expelled because she'd punched a boy, and knocked a tooth loose (And actually out).
So as he tried to ask his daughter what had happened, the principal kept telling her to hush, finally he asserted some authority, and his daughter finally got to tell him that the boy had come up, and grabbed her breasts, (leaving bruises). And yes, she'd told the principal that. Father turned, said "Fine, see you in court, we're goin to my lawyer's now" and amazingly, the principal wasn't quite as determined to do anything to the daughter.
How stupid was that?
IMO, Darwin-award level. That guy needed to be hit with a lawsuit. With lots of publicity. And lose his job.
There is always shit. The trick is to train your kids it's not their fault, any more than it's their fault that they were born. The key to get across to the kids, which is something my parents did a horrible job of doing, is that the universe, by it's very nature, is injust, and that will never change. The best that any of us can hope for is to seek a modicum of justice where all are treated fairly.
"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Post #7,227
8/30/01 1:14:34 PM
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Small attitude adjustment
The key to get across to the kids, which is something my parents did a horrible job of doing, is that the universe, by it's very nature, is injust, and that will never change. That sounds like something my wife would say. I disagree. I think the universe is indifferent. It's a fine distinction, but it matters. The good guy doesn't always win, any more than he always loses. "Winning" and "losing" are completely unrelated to who "deserves" what. (Except that the maturity to adjust your expectations can change the perception of what it means to win, but that's a whole 'nother matter.) This is my sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
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Post #7,204
8/30/01 11:03:05 AM
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Is it that simple?
Simple. White Judges, White Juries, White Prosecutors = minority in jail.
I'll presume you mean *A* minority in jail.. Unless you meant that white judges, juries, and procecutors are minorities in jail, which sounds about right... :)
Said that way, it sounds like you're presuming there's a conspiracy. That innocent minorities are being locked away by whitey. I've not seen that.
I've certainly seen the instiutional and personal racism that is deplorable - but conspiracies to wrongly convict minorities are, I think, very rare.
So to further guess, guessing you mean that the minorities don't get the best legal advice, and that they go to jail for something that a white defendant would have been able to walk on....
I don't buy that. Sure, it happens some - but that then is a money issue, not a race issue. (Witness the OJ Simpson trial). Poor white trash has a pretty high conviction rate, in my experience.
Minorities traditionally do not vote that much, compared to whites, so juries tend to be predominantly white.
Probably there, that's true. Down here, its a much more diverse pool. So are you saying the South is less racist because there are that many more blacks in the Jury pool? :)
My Japanese girlfriend, ...as her culture looked down on everybody.
Ain't that the truth. I tell people if you think the US is racist? Spend some time in Japan. (dated a 1/2 Japanese girl for a while (who was 6'1, and wouldn't listen to me about getting her japanese brushed up, and going and playing volleyball for their Olympic team.. :)) She worked at a japanese resturant for a while, and the owner (who was competing with himself to break INS and IRS records at a greater pace) would have left the Klan in the dust.
I will have to teach them to be cautious around police, to make no sudden movements, to act as if they are under suspicion at all times.
I think you might be overreacting, just a tad, here. Or need to move to a nicer place. :)
I will have to teach them to ignore bullies, because if a white bully tells a school principal that they started it, who will the principal believe? My own experience in High School has shown that it does not matter who started it - it matters what their background is. Whitey=Rightey
In recent experience - the school will go into lockdown over the "race" problem, and everybody gets counselled. (my old high school, where my mother was teaching, 2 kids got into the regular sort of 15-year old fist fight. Nothing racial about it, one kid tripped the other, and its intention came into question. :)
I think you're far far overreacting there. Similar to current women's power now - minorities have a huge club to wield. The fairness and equity is debateable, but I don't think you'll find a principal (who is any good), who will dismiss your kids because they're not 100% white.
Having said that, there ARE idiots out there. Guy I worked with at Amex got called to school one day, was told his daughter was being suspended and possibly expelled because she'd punched a boy, and knocked a tooth loose (And actually out).
So as he tried to ask his daughter what had happened, the principal kept telling her to hush, finally he asserted some authority, and his daughter finally got to tell him that the boy had come up, and grabbed her breasts, (leaving bruises). And yes, she'd told the principal that. Father turned, said "Fine, see you in court, we're goin to my lawyer's now" and amazingly, the principal wasn't quite as determined to do anything to the daughter.
How stupid was that?
I mean, here's someone, who is told the story, and *knows* that her breasts were grabbed, and comes to a decision - that of COURSE he'd have to back down on, once the story came out. Stupid, stupid. (I don't know his race, btw, both kids were white).
And that sort of stupidity (which *is* locked into the US educational system) isn't something you can plan on - or tell your kids to predicate their behavior because of it . (And it ain't skin tone that matters).
Its just not that simple. You'll have to raise your kids best you can.
There's loads of stuff that could come up - like the NC family who's in court because the 2 year old chased a cat onto the lawn, naked, for a couple of minutes. Like the 6 year old boys hit with sex harrassment charges.....
Addison
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