Re: Its whats in the dictionaries that is interesting

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Post #70,777

Picture of deSitter

12/25/02 10:26:01 AM

Re: Its whats in the dictionaries that is interesting

I may be out of my gourd, but when you talk about these things I keep thinking of FORTH, which is very low level - hardly any convenience features. The code is extremely simple on one sense - there are primitives coded in very optimized assembler, and then words are just lists of pointers to the primitives - so a program is just long list of addresses to the primitives combined with proper preparation of the stack. On the other hand, words can be created with a dynamic runtime behavior (CREATE DOES>) so very complex things are easy to model (this is why it's a great realtime environment). See here for how code and data get "objectified" in the real world:

[link|http://www.tinyboot.com/man/crdoes.html|http://www.tinyboot.com/man/crdoes.html]

Tinyboot: [link|http://www.tinyboot.com/|http://www.tinyboot.com/]

Note that the way FORTH does this is by patching memory - it's brutal and effective. There is something deep there...

When I claimed to the FORTH people that "Object FORTH" was dumb because it was alreadly objectified, they scoffed :)

-drl

Post #70,834

by tuberculosis

Picture of tuberculosis

12/25/02 6:33:38 PM

Its very similar

"The code is extremely simple on one sense - there are primitives coded in very optimized assembler, and then words are just lists of pointers to the primitives - so a program is just long list of addresses to the primitives combined with proper preparation of the stack. On the other hand, words can be created with a dynamic runtime behavior (CREATE DOES>) so very complex things are easy to model (this is why it's a great realtime environment)."

Yep. Smalltalks work somewhat like this - starting low level and aggregating upwards. But Smalltalk works on virtual hardware and the memory itself is an object with behaviors for persistence, compaction, garbage collection, etc.

I think Smalltalk adds higher organizing principles of classes on top of this low level stuff - but this is all implemented in Smalltalk itself and could be implemented in forth - IOW, you don't need to change forth to implement OO in forth - just build the appropriate infrastructure in forth itself.

It doesn't seem like that infrastructure is commonly built though.

I am out of the country for the duration of the Bush administration.
Please leave a message and I'll get back to you when democracy returns.

A relational definition of OOP - (tablizer) - (62) - Dec. 24, 2002, 01:29:14 AM EST

It makes sense to me but also - (boxley) - Dec. 24, 2002, 08:31:40 AM EST

Pretty much correct - (tuberculosis) - (58) - Dec. 24, 2002, 09:59:17 AM EST

re: Pretty much correct - (tablizer) - (57) - Dec. 25, 2002, 01:08:35 AM EST

The difference. - (static) - (4) - Dec. 25, 2002, 06:31:49 AM EST

Re: The difference - (tablizer) - (3) - Dec. 25, 2002, 05:13:53 PM EST

Okay, I'll try again. - (static) - (2) - Dec. 26, 2002, 03:42:13 AM EST

re: Okay, I'll try again. - (tablizer) - (1) - Dec. 26, 2002, 02:17:20 AM EST

Go troll elsewhere. (new thread) - (static) - Dec. 26, 2002, 03:39:56 AM EST

Its whats in the dictionaries that is interesting - (tuberculosis) - (41) - Dec. 25, 2002, 08:29:46 AM EST

Re: Its whats in the dictionaries that is interesting - (deSitter) - (1) - Dec. 25, 2002, 10:26:01 AM EST

Its very similar - (tuberculosis) - Dec. 25, 2002, 06:33:38 PM EST

marrying data and behavior - (tablizer) - (38) - Dec. 25, 2002, 05:23:27 PM EST

Re: marrying data and behavior - (tuberculosis) - (37) - Dec. 25, 2002, 06:36:37 PM EST

Re: marrying data and behavior - (tablizer) - (36) - Dec. 26, 2002, 02:22:41 AM EST

Got it - (tuberculosis) - (35) - Dec. 26, 2002, 11:01:14 AM EST

you are not weighing the whole kitten kabootal - (tablizer) - (34) - Dec. 26, 2002, 11:43:47 AM EST

Kitten Kabootal?? Is that some stripper you know? - (deSitter) - (2) - Dec. 27, 2002, 02:42:14 AM EST

Don't I wish :-) -NT - (tablizer) - Dec. 27, 2002, 03:58:27 AM EST

I know her! great smile and a grinning kabootal! -NT - (boxley) - Dec. 27, 2002, 10:30:01 AM EST

Sure I am - but you're not - (tuberculosis) - (30) - Dec. 30, 2002, 07:49:04 AM EST

Wow! If this woun't get through, nothing can. - (Arkadiy) - Dec. 30, 2002, 10:44:45 AM EST

LISP - Lists + Relational - (tablizer) - (28) - Dec. 30, 2002, 06:09:32 PM EST

Gets you Smalltalk - (tuberculosis) - (26) - Dec. 30, 2002, 08:50:07 PM EST

Thanks! 1 topic down, Googolplex-1 to go. :-) -NT - (Another Scott) - (24) - Dec. 30, 2002, 08:19:39 PM EST

For Bryce, this is pretty much the only topic he discusses - (tuberculosis) - (23) - Jan. 1, 2003, 03:37:08 PM EST

That is not true - (tablizer) - (22) - Jan. 1, 2003, 05:49:31 PM EST

Not to mention sheet music conventions/annotations. :) -NT - (a6l6e6x) - (21) - Jan. 1, 2003, 10:18:51 PM EST

Woah - sheet music - I haven't seen that stuff in years... - (tuberculosis) - (20) - Jan. 2, 2003, 05:14:45 AM EST

Playing by ear - (Steve Lowe) - (8) - Jan. 2, 2003, 01:17:41 PM EST

ObAol MeToo (tm) - (Meerkat) - (7) - Jan. 2, 2003, 06:22:04 PM EST

Re: ObAol MeToo (tm) - (deSitter) - (6) - Jan. 2, 2003, 08:58:55 PM EST

I can read music, I'm just really slow at it. -NT - (Meerkat) - (5) - Jan. 2, 2003, 10:15:55 PM EST

That's really interesting. - (static) - (3) - Jan. 4, 2003, 04:41:59 AM EST

Speed-reader here - (drewk) - (1) - Jan. 3, 2003, 10:55:19 AM EST

You're a drummer? Cool! -NT - (deSitter) - Jan. 4, 2003, 01:13:52 PM EST

I use chord charts a lot - (Steve Lowe) - Jan. 5, 2003, 02:11:58 AM EST

Same here. - (admin) - Jan. 3, 2003, 10:31:13 AM EST

Todd, Steve, guys - just a well-meaning tip: - (CRConrad) - (10) - Jan. 5, 2003, 11:47:43 AM EST

CRC, Just a Well Meaning Tip.. - (deSitter) - (6) - Jan. 5, 2003, 11:51:53 AM EST

What's annoying as Hell is pompous know-it-alls, and... - (CRConrad) - Jan. 5, 2003, 11:55:45 AM EST

Bar table load times aren't affected by size of past chat -NT - (admin) - (4) - Jan. 5, 2003, 06:26:30 PM EST

That's the legitimate use - (deSitter) - (3) - Jan. 5, 2003, 06:44:30 PM EST

Naah, you're missing the REAL use: - (CRConrad) - (2) - Jan. 5, 2003, 07:19:15 PM EST

Re: Naah, you're missing the REAL use: - (deSitter) - (1) - Jan. 5, 2003, 07:22:06 PM EST

OK, that last point is one we can agree on, at least! :-) -NT - (CRConrad) - Jan. 5, 2003, 07:38:47 PM EST

If I had any idea this would be so hot - (tuberculosis) - Jan. 6, 2003, 05:56:25 PM EST

Well meaning tip - (Steve Lowe) - (1) - Jan. 7, 2003, 02:01:02 AM EST

Long as you knew you "prolly shoulda", that's all I wanted. -NT - (CRConrad) - Jan. 7, 2003, 09:14:04 AM EST

But I get juiced-up dispatching, et al. - (tablizer) - Dec. 31, 2002, 03:53:20 AM EST

Re: LISP - Lists + Relational - (deSitter) - Dec. 30, 2002, 09:59:33 PM EST

re: Pretty much correct - (johnu) - (9) - Dec. 26, 2002, 10:43:11 PM EST

"Data" is whatever you make it - (tablizer) - (8) - Dec. 26, 2002, 11:33:32 PM EST

Re: "Data" is whatever you make it - (johnu) - (7) - Dec. 27, 2002, 03:00:18 PM EST

complexity of Java is not a selling point - (tablizer) - Dec. 27, 2002, 03:23:08 PM EST

I wouldn't bother, John. - (static) - (5) - Dec. 27, 2002, 08:09:32 PM EST

No,YOU don't get it: 1-1-1 is Limiting - (tablizer) - (4) - Dec. 27, 2002, 09:55:00 PM EST

*sigh* Since you asked... - (static) - (3) - Dec. 27, 2002, 11:28:16 PM EST

shoeboxes, pencils, and strips of paper - (tablizer) - (2) - Dec. 28, 2002, 03:41:59 AM EST

Read everything again. Yes, the whole thread. - (static) - (1) - Dec. 28, 2002, 04:37:57 AM EST

You are still thinking in code - (tablizer) - Dec. 28, 2002, 02:06:39 PM EST

Re: A relational definition of OOP - (deSitter) - (1) - Dec. 25, 2002, 07:44:55 AM EST

Re: A relational definition of OOP - (JimWeirich) - Jan. 6, 2003, 01:28:47 PM EST

Then again, I think our walls are made from the salvaged hulls of exotic alien spacecraft so YMMV.
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